欢迎, 游客
用户名: 密码: 记住我
01 四 2018
各位老友,若有老ID需要找回,请尽量回忆相关细节比如ID名称、注册时间、注册邮箱之类,联系我们可以解决。

浩如烟海
2018年4月1日
在不违背道德和法律的前提下,一切不合于其它版块的帖子,均可发表于此。
  • 页:
  • 1

主题: 现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-17 18:26 #1

  • ns520
  • ns520的头像 Topic Author
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 7
  • 感谢您收到 0
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机.

本文引用自 红杏《现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机,切勿错过》
如今,也许很多人都没有看到,现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机。

其理由如下:
  
  
   一、现在中国一举解决南海问题,美国人干涉的可能性最小。
  
  
   1、美国现在正陷入国内的经济危机,一个国家如果经济出了大问题,他首先要解决的必然是国内的问题,国外的政治必然放在次要地位,美国应该也不例外。
  
  
   2、美国军队现在正处于最疲劳的阶段,所以再大规对外使用武力的可能性非常小。伊拉克战争,阿富汗战争折腾了美国人近十年,美国人其实已经疲劳不堪,不但人员疲劳,而且设备的频繁使用,设备也其实疲劳了,此时对中国用武其实可能性非常小,这也是美国人不动伊朗的一个主要原因。
  
  
   3、中美交战,美国现在失败的可能性非常大。美国军队的武备现今也正处于最低谷期,F-22战机陷入大麻烦已经全面停飞大修,F-35战机还没有一架武装部队,中美如果现在交手,美军未必能够占上风。
  
  
   4、美国武装干涉南海可能性非常小的主要原因还有,现今美国与菲律宾、越南等国还没有签署任何军事条约,对华发动战争美国国会很难通过战争授权,但是,一旦越南和菲律宾将他们的军港租给美国海军,做为利益交换签订相关军事条约,美国武装干涉中国南海的可能性将大幅度上升。
  
  
   5、美国的石油公司还没有大规模的卷入中国的南海石油开发。现今,美国的石油公司卷入南海开发的还非常少,但这种现象维持不了多久,一旦油价再进一步上涨,利益驱使,美国的石油公司将会大规模的卷入南海的开发浪潮!
  [/color]  
   这种的也时光不会持继太久的,一旦美国的经济问题解决,一旦美军彻底完成伊拉克与阿富汗的撤军并休息个三年五载,美军卷入南海的可能性将大幅度上升。
  
  
   二、 现在中国一举解决南海问题,中国的代价最小。
  
  
   1、中国现在在南海没有竖起一口油井,而越南与菲律宾的油井已经竖起来的已经近千口,一旦开战,这些油井也可以成为攻击的目标,如果,南海真的要通过武力解决,我问大家,是已经竖了油井的国家损失大还是没有竖油井的国家损失大,答案显而易见。所谓赤脚的不怕穿鞋的,现在中国在南海正处于赤脚时期。
  
  
   2、现在是越南与菲律宾武装力量最弱的时期,战争爆发对中国的伤害其实最小。越南向俄罗斯所订购的潜艇、飞机、防空导弹到货并训练形成战斗力起码还要五年左右的时间,越南与菲律宾现在的武力其实是最薄弱期,中国如果现在武力收复南海其实所付出的代价最小。
  
  
   三、中国内政现在正处于最平稳期。
  
  
   1、 中国的经济现在还处于平稳上升阶段,国内的各阶层的茅盾还处于相对缓和阶段,但是,一旦中国的房地产泡沫破裂,国内经济下滑,国内各阶层茅盾就会大爆发,其内政问题将分散统治阶级主要精力,将再无精力去处理南海问题。
  
  
   2、 中国现在的藏独、疆独、台独的势力现在正处于休眠期,这主要原因是以美国为首的西方国家经济出了大问题所至,他们的经济出了大问题必然要先救火,拿不出那么钱让那些藏独、疆独、台独份子来闹事,并且他们经济上现在正有求于中国。
  
  
   四、日本现在有大麻烦,也是我们解决南海问题的良机。
  
  
   1、对南海问题的干涉,日本也会给我们带来大麻烦,但日本现在遭受绝世天灾,他们干涉中国南海,现在实际上可以基本上排除在外了。
  
   2、现在日本的大麻烦需要中国的帮助,所以配合菲、越两国在钓鱼岛主权问题上闹事的可能性也非常小。
  
  
   五、中国人要明白,南海问题越拖将会越麻烦,时间不在中国这一边。
  
  
   一个人的老婆被别人抢走了,我问你,是当天把她抢回来容易,还是一个月后抢回来更容易,这个答案显而易见,当然是当天抢回来更容易,因为别人睡了你的老婆就会有感情了。
  
   我又问,是一个月后抢回来容易,还是一年后抢回来更容易,答案也显而易见,当然,是一个月后抢回来更容易,因为,一年后你的老婆可能已经生下别人的孩子了,别人不但有感情,还有了真切的利益,别人会跟你拚命。
  
  
   领土主权也一样,霸占的时间长了,别人不但产生了感情,而且还会产生重大的切身利益,所以领土主权问题,拖的时间越长,解决起来就越棘手。
  
  
   南海主权问题也是一样的,南海在菲律宾、越南的油井没有竖起时容易解决,还是在菲律宾、越南的油井已经竖起后更容易解决?答案显而易见,没有竖油井的时候更容易解决。
  
   我又问?南海主权问题,是在菲律宾、越南的油井已经竖起1000口时容易解决?还是在菲律宾、越南的油井已经竖起了5000口时更容易解决?我想,绝对是只竖起1000口时更容易解决。
  
  
   对于美国来说,是 菲律宾、越南的油井竖起1000口时容易引起他们的武装干涉兴趣?还是在菲律宾、越南的油井已经竖起5000口时更容易引起他们的武装干涉兴趣?答案也显而易见的。
  
   所以说,南海领土主权问题中国真的再也拖不得了

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-17 20:02 #2

  • nick
  • nick的头像
  • 离线
  • 管理员
  • 管理员
  • 帖子: 1267
  • 声望: 3
  • 感谢您收到 7
关联阅读:

当前是中国解决南沙问题的一个难得的战略机遇期
[url]viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3112[/url]

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

版权无有 多谢转贴
强盛 威严 博爱 之中国

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 09:55 #3

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
All these reasons are valid. I have also posted on this question saying this is the best time for China to go to war.

www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/13/us-us...dUSTRE76C6PT20110713

Moody's is the first of the big-three credit rating agencies to place the United States' Aaa rating on review for a possible downgrade, meaning the agency is close to cutting the country's rating.

Standard & Poor's placed the U.S. rating on negative outlook on April 18 which meant a downgrade is likely in 12-18 months.

A lower credit rating would cause havoc in financial markets around the world and increase borrowing costs for the government and businesses, further harming public finances and weighing on the economic recovery.


================================

www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-ch...fault-on-debt-2009-3

China Terrified U.S. Will Default On Debt
Henry Blodget|Mar. 13, 2009, 5:04 PM

The U.S. will likely default by triggering hyper-inflation, obliterating the value of the $1 trillion that the U.S. owes China. This tactic will also obliterate U.S. citizens who have been dumb enough to save money, of course, but better that (from the government's perspective) than drowning voters in mountains of debt.

NYT:“President Obama and his new government have adopted a series of measures to deal with the financial crisis. We have expectations as to the effects of these measures,” Mr. Wen said. “We have lent a huge amount of money to the U.S. Of course we are concerned about the safety of our assets. To be honest, I am definitely a little worried.”

===================

I have always said that China is unwise to accumulate so much forex reserve. It squanders too much energy and resources while neglecting to develop its own technologies and its internal economy through the urbanization of the farmers or rural residents. Now China is facing either a quick loss of its dollars through default or a slow loss through the devaluation of its dollar holding relative to the yuan. In any event China must raise the value of its yuan to the purchasing power parity value in order to maintain a proper balance in its foreign trade. Excessively low value of the yuan will simply give away its exports as practically free gifts.

Also, with this background it is obvious that America cannot afford to fight a war with China. Therefore, China should use this opportunity to regain its sovereign territories from the 4 small thugs in S. E. Asia. America is pretending to be tough and able to fight another war. But America is in S. China Sea only because CPC leaders have stupidly assured them that China will not shoot first. So there is no risk for America to strut around in S. China Sea pretending to be tough. But the moment shooting starts America will quickly find an excuse and scoot back to the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 10:00 #4

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
Unfortunately, Chinese government has foolishly sold out China again by signing a new declaration for "cooperation" with all the other invading countries. Now the Filipino officials are openly touring the S. China Sea and threatening to take the case to the UN and generally treating China like a thief. And the stupid Chinese government just apologize and promise more cooperation. As I keep saying there can be no satisfactory solution except by military force. Either China give up or it goes to war. And if China gave up, then we're back to 100 years ago and begin the long slide downward again. I fear for China. Our motherland is not being protected.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 13:21 #5

  • evenstevens
  • evenstevens的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 5
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: As I keep saying there can be no satisfactory solution except by military force. Either China give up or it goes to war. And if China gave up, then we're back to 100 years ago and begin the long slide downward again. I fear for China. Our motherland is not being protected. [/ quote]

Extreme nationalism is a threat to world peace. A Sinocentrist mindset, like yours, results in territorial, economic, and cultural expansionism at the expense of the weaker-- all for the Han's interests. Mind you, such attitude is heavily condemned by humanity of the 21st century.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 15:32 #6

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang's prior post:
As I keep saying there can be no satisfactory solution except by military force. Either China give up or it goes to war. And if China gave up, then we're back to 100 years ago and begin the long slide downward again. I fear for China. Our motherland is not being protected.

evensteven's response:
Extreme nationalism is a threat to world peace. A Sinocentrist mindset, like yours, results in territorial, economic, and cultural expansionism at the expense of the weaker-- all for the Han's interests. Mind you, such attitude is heavily condemned by humanity of the 21st century.


People like evensteven bore me to tears. These are either ignorant or some kind of propagandist out to subvert Chinese minds.

Extreme nationalism? Sinocentrist? Expansion at the expense of the weaker? How did you get all these from my post which only said China should use force to defend its sovereign territories? If you think advocating force in defense of one's country is a conclusive symptom for extrerme nationalism, ethnocentrism, inevitable aggressive expansion at the expense of the weaker, then everybody in the world is quilty. Which patriotic people do you know who would not use force in the defense of his native land? Even the Vietnamese are calling for defending their land against the Chinese. This is such low nonsense that it really does not worth my time to answer.

Ultimately the question is who is the sovereign owners of S. China Sea. And China is the true sovereign owner because it had established its sovereignty since the time of the Tang Dynasty when the Vietnamese themselves have admitted that they did not even discover these islands until the 17th Century. What more needs be said? The Vietnamese themselves have proven China's case.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 20:55 #7

  • evenstevens
  • evenstevens的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 5
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: Extreme nationalism? Sinocentrist? Expansion at the expense of the weaker? How did you get all these from my post which only said China should use force to defend its sovereign territories?


I don't want to see war being waged, blood being shed, hatred and racism flourish, economic activities hindered, ordinary people's lives ruined over some tiny islands 1,000 km away from the mainland. War is NEVER okay, and your attitude is not okay either.

As long as peace is kept, I don't mind if the islands belong to Vietnam or China. What peace could there be if one party is determined to go to war over an issue in dispute?
And by in dispute, I mean it is being disputed. It is not absolute whether Vietnam or China is the true owner of the islands. I can show you proofs of Vietnamese sovereignty used by the Vietnamese; and trust me, they sound just as convincing as the Chinese argument. It's all a matter of how prejudiced you are, or which side you are biased to/against. You and I, we are biased. As such, you can't just use force in favor of something you believe is right. You have to prove it, with evidences, facts, powerful arguments, to an adjudicator. Which apparently is something the Chinese and Vietnamese government never did.

Now, as the matter of those islands' sovereignty is being disputed, diplomatic talks or peaceful resolutions are always the ultimate choice. What good does it do if any party has that attitude of yours-- starting war over something you believe you are right?
You can't just take a gun into the piece of unfenced garden both you and your neighbor claim and shoot him as soon as he steps in. That is you being blindly aggressive and unnecessarily violent. You personally believe that the piece of garden belongs to you, but it might just belong to the neighbor. Who knows, let's take it to court.

I called you Sinocentrist because you showed a strong and unreasonable desire for China to be stronger and bigger-- at the expense of the small neighbors. China already engulfs a massive chunk of land acquired through territorial expansion over time. Why, I mean why, are you so determined-- as much as to use force-- to gain a tiny collection of islands 1,000km away from your mainland?

Liang3a 写道:: Which patriotic people do you know who would not use force in the defense of his native land?


Your statement does not apply in this situation. The Spratly islands have never been inhabited by Han people, and as such, is not your native land. In fact, the Vietnamese had been extracting resources from those islands during the Nguyen Dynasty-- the 19th century, when no Chinese men were around, except for some passing by fishing boats. It is thus more appropriate to say that the Vietnamese were the first ones to inhabit, to actually live and use those islands. The Vietnamese are the natives. You discovered the islands, but you decided not to live there. The French and Dutch discovered Australia first, but it was the British who put Australia under its governance. Australia belonged to Britain, not France or the Netherlands.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 07:11 #8

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

evensteven wrote:
I don't want to see war being waged, blood being shed, hatred and racism flourish, economic activities hindered, ordinary people's lives ruined over some tiny islands 1,000 km away from the mainland. War is NEVER okay, and your attitude is not okay either.


Just so we know where you're coming from, what race or natinality are you? Are you a Chinese or a Vietnamese? Or some other? Are you even an Asian?

Nobody in his right mind would want to see war or hatred or racism or any of the other bad things you mentioned. But as the well known saying goes, "There is a season for all things under the heaven. There is a time to be born and a time to die; there is a time to love and a time to hate; there is a time for peace and a time for war." In its proper season even war is not only permissible but necessary. Only fools and cowards will refuse to fight in the defense of their motherland.

As the well know Chinese military strategist 司马穰苴 had written it is necessary to fight in the defense of the state against foreign aggression. I give belowpart the first chapter of 司马穰苴兵法:

古者,以仁为本,以义治之之谓正,正不获意则权。权出于战,不出于中人。是故,
杀人安人,杀之可也;攻其国,爱其民,攻之可也;以战止战,虽战可也。故仁见
亲,义见说,智见恃,勇见方,信见信。内得爱焉,所以守也;外得威焉,所以战
也。

战道:不违时,不历民病,所以爱吾民也;不加丧,不因凶,所以爱夫其民也;冬
夏不兴师,所以兼爱其民也。故国虽大,好战必亡;天下虽安,忘战必危。天下既
平,天下大恺。春嵬秋猕,诸侯春振旅,秋治兵,所以不忘战也。

As you can see, even though he based the administration of the state on benevolence yet he advocated using force to maintain justice. Therefore it is foolish to say "war is never ok." War is necessary to maintain sovereignty and to protect the security of a nation. Anybody who say war is never ok is simply too foolish to argue with.

I've seen propaganda like this almost everywhere. Are you guys trained from the same propaganda school? You're always using the same propaganda such as "extreme nationalism", "sinocentrism", "expansionism", "war is evil", "motherland is not worth defending", etc. In other words you guys just want Chinese people to just sit back and let foreign invaders to invade China like it did in the last 200 years.

Specifically, the defense of the motherland does not mean it should be defended based on the value of the land or how far away it is. All land must be defended or else China will be whittled away bit by bit until it is all gone. S. China Sea may be 1,000 km away from mainland China but China is 5,000 km from north to south. So it is not all that far away. Furthermore, Hanoi is 200 miles farther away from Nansha A. than Hainan. Therefore, you should be telling the Vietnamese to stop invading Chinese territories because they are far away. In the end, the defense of the motherland is not based on its distance or value but on the fundamental principle of national integrity and the practical need to discourage aggressors from further aggressions.

evensteven wrote:
As long as peace is kept, I don't mind if the islands belong to Vietnam or China. What peace could there be if one party is determined to go to war over an issue in dispute?
And by in dispute, I mean it is being disputed. It is not absolute whether Vietnam or China is the true owner of the islands. I can show you proofs of Vietnamese sovereignty used by the Vietnamese; and trust me, they sound just as convincing as the Chinese argument. It's all a matter of how prejudiced you are, or which side you are biased to/against. You and I, we are biased. As such, you can't just use force in favor of something you believe is right. You have to prove it, with evidences, facts, powerful arguments, to an adjudicator. Which apparently is something the Chinese and Vietnamese government never did.


I'm sure you don't care who owns the islands. Why should you care? You're not even a Chinese. You're happinest if the Chinese lost the islands. Furthermore, peace is not the goal here. Territorial sovereignty is the goal here. And territorial sovereignty cannot be sacrificed for peace.

And China is the clear sovereign owner of these islands. China had establsihed sovereignty over these island since the time of Tang Dynasty. The Vietnamese claim they "discovered" it in the 17th Century. Since the Chinese already established sovereignty over these islands in the 7th Century, how could the Vietnamese have discovered it 1,000 years later? That is nonsense! Also the Vietnamese claim it succeeded to the islands through succession from France. But France could not have legally established sovereignty over these islands because China had objected. Vietnam could not have succeeded to these islands from France anymore than it could have succeeded them from Japan! The last argument Vietnam is using is that they have established "effective occupation and control." This is also nonsense because as long as China maintain its claim of sovereignty nobody can legally occupy them. The Japanese occupied and controlled these islands for decades. But in the end, China regained sovereignty over them by defeating the Japanese. If necessary China can go to war and blow the Vietnamese out of China's sovereign territories and then there won't be any more claims of Vietnamese occupation and control.

China has proven its claim of sovereignty by showing an unbroken chain of sovereignty from the time of Tang Dynasty down to the current time. In the last century China was attacked and weakened and unable to effectively defend its sovereign territories. Now it has recovered its strength and will take back its rightful sovereign territories. I'm not biased. I cannot argue against truth and facts. Furtunately, truth and facts are on the side of China in this issue. It is absolute that these islands belong to China!!!!!

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 07:31 #9

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a's prior post: Which patriotic people do you know who would not use force in the defense of his native land?

evensteven's response:
Your statement does not apply in this situation. The Spratly islands have never been inhabited by Han people, and as such, is not your native land. In fact, the Vietnamese had been extracting resources from those islands during the Nguyen Dynasty-- the 19th century, when no Chinese men were around, except for some passing by fishing boats. It is thus more appropriate to say that the Vietnamese were the first ones to inhabit, to actually live and use those islands. The Vietnamese are the natives. You discovered the islands, but you decided not to live there. The French and Dutch discovered Australia first, but it was the British who put Australia under its governance. Australia belonged to Britain, not France or the Netherlands.


Actually, many of these islands had been inhabited by Chinese since the very beginning of its discovery in the 3rd Century BC. Chinese had established sovereignty over these islands since the Tang Dynasty. Obviously not all the islands had been inhabited by Chinese. But where is it written that China must occupy every square inch of its land? Vast stretches of Australia still has not been explored let alone inhabited. Vast stretches of Brazil Amazon forest has never been explored let alone inhabited. Vast stretches of Alaska has never been explored let alone inhabited by Americans. So human habitation is not a reason for abandonment of sovereignty. If Vietnamese had sneaked into Chinese territories then they are invaders just as illegal Mexicans who sneak into America are still illegal no matter how long they lived in America. Once China had established sovereignty over the S. China Sea and exert its sovereignty over it, then nobody else can sneak into it and claim it. Furthermore, it is because the Chinese have not gone to war to blow these illegals out of Chinese territories long before that it has gotten into this current situation of dispute. So it is time for China to take decisive action to take care of the problem once and for all. Blow these Vietnamese out of China's sovereign territories. And while China is at it, blow away the Filipinos and Malays and Brunei too.

And lastly, I'm a Chinese and proud of it. If you want to call it sinocentrism then so be it. Your opinion is not important at all.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 07:37 #10

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
evensteven claimed that the Chinese had never inhabited Nansha A. I give below an article to regute him. The article also give other supporting evidence for China's sovereignty.


http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/topics/3754/t19234.htm

Jurisprudential Evidence To Support China's Sovereignty over the Nansha Islands


2000/11/17

China has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and it has ample jurisprudential evidence to support this.

A. Full and accurate historical data, both Chinese and foreign, has provided rich and substantial evidence to show that the Chinese people were the first to discover and name the Nansha Islands. As early as in the Han Dynasty that was more than two thousand years ago, the Chinese people discovered the Nansha Islands through their navigational experience and in the course of their productive activities over the years. All this was amply recorded in the books such as Records of Rarities by Yang Fu of the Eastern Han Dynasty, Records of Rarities in Southern Boundary by Wan Zhen of the Three Kingdoms Period and A History of Phnom by General Kang Tai of the East Wu State. All these historical records represent the Chinese people's cognition and appreciation of the land on which they lived and worked. They are of great importance in the perspective of international law. In view of the development of international law, these records and accounts of the discovery by the ancient Chinese people of the islands on the South China Sea bear abundant evidence to China's indisputable territorial sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. Obviously, the Nansha Islands are not land without owners, but rather they are an inalienable part of Chinese territory. No country in the world has the right to change China's legal status as the owner of the Nansha Islands in any way.

B. The fact that the Chinese people have developed the Nansha Islands and carried out productive activities there and that the Chinese Government has actually exercised jurisdiction over these islands has reinforced China's sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. After discovering the Nansha Islands, the Chinese people started to develop and engage in fishing, planting and other productive activities on the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters from the Tang and Song Dynasties at the latest. Fei Yuan of the Jin Dynasty (265-420 A.D.) wrote about the fishing and collecting of coral samples by the fishermen of China on the South China Sea in his article Chronicles of Guangzhou. After the Ming and Qing Dynasties, fishermen from Wenchang County and Qionghai County of Hainan Island used to sail southward with the northeasterly monsoon to the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters for fishing every winter and come back to Hainan with the southwesterly monsoon before the typhoon season started. The Chinese people lived and engaged in fishing, planting and other productive activities on the Nansha Islands individually at first, but they were later on organized with the approval and support of the Chinese Government. Even when the conditions on the Nansha Islands were not suitable for people to live, some of the Chinese fishermen still lived on the islands for years. For ages, Chinese fishermen would come and go between Hainan Island and Guangdong Province on the one hand and the Nansha Islands on the other for productive activities and they never failed to pay their taxes and fees to the Chinese Government.

C. The exercise of jurisdiction by the Chinese Government over the Nansha Islands is also manifested in a series of continued effective government behavior. After Emperor Zhenyuan of the Tang Dynasty (785-805AD) came to the throne, China included the Nansha Islands into its administrative map. It did so more conscientiously in the Ming and Qing Dynasties. A wealth of official documents of the Chinese Government, its local history books and official maps have recorded the exercise of jurisdiction by the successive governments of China over the Nansha Islands and recognized these islands as Chinese territory. Up till the beginning of this century, the Chinese Government had exercised peaceful jurisdiction over the Nansha Islands without any disputes.

Since the beginning of this century, the Chinese Government has undauntedly maintained China's sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. In the 1930s, France once invaded and occupied nine of the Nansha Islands, over which the Chinese Government immediately made diplomatic representations with the French Government and against which Chinese fishermen staged an organized resistance. Between 1912 and 1949 when China was a republic, the then Chinese Government took a series of active measures to safeguard its sovereignty. For instance, it furnished the Chinese fishermen and fishing boats that engaged in the fishing on the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters with China's national flags. It organized trips to the Nansha Islands for a survey of their history and geography. And it authorized a map-printing and toponymic agency to rename and approve the names of all the islands on the South China Sea including the Nansha Islands, individually and collectively.

During World War II, Japan invaded and occupied China's Nansha Islands. China made unremitting efforts for the recovery of these islands from the Japanese occupation. In 1943, China, the United States and the United Kingdom announced in the Cairo Declaration that all the territories that Japan had stolen from China should be "restored to China," including "Manchuria, Taiwan and the Penghu Islands." At that time, Japan put the Nansha Islands under the jurisdiction of Taiwan. The territories to be restored to China as identified in the Cairo Declaration naturally included the Nansha Islands. The 1945 Potsdam Proclamation confirmed once again that the stolen territories should be restored to China. According to the Cairo Declaration and Potsdam Proclamation, China recovered the Nansha Island in 1946. At the same time it went through a series of legal procedures and announced to the whole world that China had resumed the exercise of sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. Subsequently, the Chinese Government held a take-over ceremony and sent troops to the islands on garrison duty. An official map of the Nansha Islands was drawn and printed, the Nansha Islands were renamed, collectively and individually, and the earliest book of the physical geography of the Nansha Islands was also compiled and printed.

After the founding of the People's Republic of China, the Nansha Islands were incorporated into Guangdong Province and Hainan Province successively and the Chinese Gvoernment has all along maintained China's sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and taken effective actions for that.

In view of all this, the Chinese Government has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. Some countries have claimed sovereignty of these islands on the ground that these islands are within their continental shelves or exclusive economic zones. According to international law and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, maritime rights and interests should be based on territorial sovereignty for the former derives from the latter. No country should be allowed to extend its maritime jurisdiction to the territories of other countries, still less should it be allowed to invade and occupy other's territory on the ground of exclusive economic zones or the continental shelves. All in all, any action by any country with regard to the islets, islands or reefs of the Nansha Islands, military or otherwise, constitutes encroachment of China's territorial sovereignty. It is illegal and null and void according to international law. It can in no way serve as a basis for a country's territorial claim, nor can it change China's indisputable legal status as having sovereignty over the Nansha Islands.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 10:26 #11

  • evenstevens
  • evenstevens的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 5
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: Just so we know where you're coming from, what race or natinality are you? Are you a Chinese or a Vietnamese? Or some other? Are you even an Asian?


I am full blooded Vietnamese. I have a Vietnamese passport.

Liang3a 写道:: Only fools and cowards will refuse to fight in the defense of their motherland.


Just take a look the sea territory China is claiming theirs. My common sense tells me the red line is unreasonably expansive and doesn't really represent Chinese "motherland". You're just greedily trying to seize as much resources and territory from other countries as possible. Is that right?


Liang3a 写道:: In other words you guys just want Chinese people to just sit back and let foreign invaders to invade China like it did in the last 200 years.


You poor little thing, you're acting like China has been the bully victim for ages. Wrong! YOU are the bully who arrogantly call yourself "the middle kingdom". YOU are the one who devised this ridiculous chart:



This is the 21st century my friend. The Westerners are not going to invade you, and neither is Japan going to. The world aims for peaceful development for the common goods of humanity. It is you, the ugly giant called China, that is still trying to enlarge itself and engulf the smaller neighbors.

Liang3a 写道:: And China is the clear sovereign owner of these islands.It is absolute that these islands belong to China!!!!!


No, it is only absolute and set in stone in your bigoted mind. Reality doesn't let anything absolute. The Chinese fishermen, in the journey through the South China sea, they accidentally saw some islands. The presence of some fishermen doesn't give the state the right to claim sovereignty. It is when a state, for the first time documented, put the territory under official use--as the Vietnamese did under the Nguyen Dynasty-- that sovereignty can be officially claimed.
Christopher Columbus discovered America by accident. Does that automatically grant Spain the right of sovereignty to North America? No it doesn't, and neither does China with the Spratly and Paracel islands. Your citizens discovered them; your government couldn't be bothered to claim them. Our government put them under official use for over a century, you never protested for once. It was only until recently did you start to realize the resource-rich potentials and strategic important of those islands that you started to claim yours.

Let me remind you, that while Vietnamese sovereignty over the Paracel & Spratly islands has been confirmed by various countries, China's claim is purely self-claim. A few occasions that China protested were because China believed the islands belong to the Hainan province. But guess what, China was the only one who believed they own those islands.

In the 1951 San Francisco peace treaty, Japan agreed to renounce all right, title and claim to the Spratly Islands and to the Paracel Islands. Bao Dai, the then king of the Nguyen dynasty in Vietnam, claimed Vietnamese sovereignty to those islands. His claim met no opposition from any country, not even China. Then the Geneva accords in 1954 once again confirmed Vietnamese sovereignty. Who observed and testified to Chinese sovereignty? China.

The 1887 border agreement between Tonkin and China didn't mention any island in the South China sea. It was to draw the borderline between North Vietnam and South China. China did protest, but the argument was about borders in the Guangdong area, not about the Paracel or Spratly Islands. Get your facts straight. Then when France occupied the Paracel islands in 1938, China once again protested. However, the protest was only because China self-claimed sovereignty over the islands. This protest doesn't say anything and doesn't mean anything.

The bottom line is, Vietnamese sovereignty over the Paracel & Spratly islands has been testified to according to international conventions. Vietnam has also established official use over those islands for over a century, during the Nguyen Dynasty in the 18th century.
Let's look at China's claim. China claimed sovereignty based on some passing-by Chinese fishermen who accidentally became the first ones to discover those islands. This in an unsubstantial and weak claim. To put things into perspective, Christopher Columbus was the first person to discover America, but the actual right of sovereignty belongs to whoever officially claim their use of the land first. Britain came and claimed the United States; France came and claimed parts of Canada; Portugal came and claimed Brazil. Spain, despite being the first one to discover North America, ended up with South America. Similarly in this case, even though the Chinese discovered the Paracel & Spratly islands first, it was the Vietnamese government during the Nguyen Dynasty that officially claimed them. Therefore, according to international laws of sovereignty--which is similarly being observed in America-- the islands officially belong to Vietnam. 'Nuff said?

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 13:00 #12

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a wrote:Just so we know where you're coming from, what race or natinality are you? Are you a Chinese or a Vietnamese? Or some other? Are you even an Asian?
eventsteven's response:
I am full blooded Vietnamese. I have a Vietnamese passport.


No surprise you're a Vietnamese. Only you know if you're full blooded or not.

Liang3a wrote:Only fools and cowards will refuse to fight in the defense of their motherland.
evensteven's response:
Just take a look the sea territory China is claiming theirs. My common sense tells me the red line is unreasonably expansive and doesn't really represent Chinese "motherland". You're just greedily trying to seize as much resources and territory from other countries as possible. Is that right?


Your common sense is not worth anything. Sovereignty depends on historical proofs not some biased people's common sense. China had established its territorial waters thousands of years ago. Obviously it is big and extensive. But so is China big and extensive. Are you going to argue that it is against your commons sense that China is so big? That is nonsense!

China is not seizing any territories from any other countries. How can China seize its own territories? Can Vietnam seize Hue? Or Hanoi? S. China Sea archipelagos as defined by its ancient maps are Chinese sovereign territories. Therefore China is only protecting its own sovereign territories against invaders such as Vietnam and the Philippines. You are the invaders. China is the defender. If you start talking about how big China is or how far Nansha A. is from China then you are not addressing the problem and providing proofs of your sovereignty claim but only blowing smoke. And since you are only blowing smoke it means you have no valid claim of sovereignty and have no reason to be in China's sovereign territories. So pack up and get out of China's sovereign territories or be evicted by China's military. Vietnam is the greedy one for invading Chinese sovereign territories and are arrogant enough to think they can get away with it. You think you can scare China with America? America is on the way down while China is on the way up. America needs China's cheap exports while China does not need America's increasingly worthless dollars. China's missiles can sink every American naval ships including aircraft carriers anywhere in S. China Sea. So don't be so arrogant and think America can protect you. American soldiers will just give your women a lot of AIDS and nothing more.

Every square inch of China's sovereign territories is the soil of the Chinese motherland no matter how far or how near they are, or how rich or poor in resources they are. They are equally dear and important to all Chinese people and will be equally protected for the benefit of all future generations of Chinese people.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 13:13 #13

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

evensteven wrote:
This is the 21st century my friend. The Westerners are not going to invade you, and neither is Japan going to. The world aims for peaceful development for the common goods of humanity. It is you, the ugly giant called China, that is still trying to enlarge itself and engulf the smaller neighbors.


No need to foam at the mouth. And you are not my friend.

The Westerners and Japan had invaded China so any rational man will be wary of the snakes that had bitten him. If China is strong and willing to use force to defend itself then it will be safe whatever the Westerners and Japan will or will not do. It is our wisdom to rely on our own unassailability than on the uncertain goodwill of former invaders. Furthermore, I seem to have heard of a couple of wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Obviously, the world is not as safe as you would like people to believe. China is all for peaceful development for the common good of humankind. And China has not attacked anyone in the last couple of hundred years. And China is obviously benefitting the world much more than Vietnam because without Chinese economy and Chinese money the world would have collapsed already. So be careful what you say.

China is indeed a giant. But China is not trying to enlarge itself. We've got all we need. But we will protect what is ours. It is piddling little countries like Vietnam that is greedy and insatiable and actually think it can rob the Chinese. Time for you to learn a lesson not to be soon forgotten.

And even though you pretend to be a Vietnamese, you could very well be some other kind of people trying to cause trouble between China and Vietnam. Also you may not represent the true sentiment of the Vietnamese people. For all anybody knows most of the Vietnamese people may be peace loving and are very much against the unconscienable invasion of obviously Chinese sovereign territories. The Vietnamese people should know that they can never win against China. They should know that their best future lies in cooperating with China for mutual benefits. In the end the benefit will be far more than all the money they can get out of the oil in the whole S. China Sea.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 14:20 #14

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang's prior post:
And China is the clear sovereign owner of these islands.It is absolute that these islands belong to China!!!!!


evensteven's response:
No, it is only absolute and set in stone in your bigoted mind. Reality doesn't let anything absolute. The Chinese fishermen, in the journey through the South China sea, they accidentally saw some islands. The presence of some fishermen doesn't give the state the right to claim sovereignty. It is when a state, for the first time documented, put the territory under official use--as the Vietnamese did under the Nguyen Dynasty-- that sovereignty can be officially claimed.


I had already given you references to the fact that China in Tang Dynasty incorporated the S. China Sea islands in its administrative map and officially claimed the S. China Sea archipelagos as its sovereign territories. After that it does not matter what the Vietnamese did. They can claim these islands till they're blue in the face and still they cannot changed the sovereignty of these islands. They are Chinese territories. And that is that.

evensteven's response:
Christopher Columbus discovered America by accident. Does that automatically grant Spain the right of sovereignty to North America? No it doesn't, and neither does China with the Spratly and Paracel islands. Your citizens discovered them; your government couldn't be bothered to claim them. Our government put them under official use for over a century, you never protested for once. It was only until recently did you start to realize the resource-rich potentials and strategic important of those islands that you started to claim yours.


Refer to my response above. China did incorporate S. China Sea into its adminstrative map in the Tang Dynasty. It was obviously a mistake for China to allow the Vietnamese to enter the Chinese islands out of the goodness of its heart. It is the same mistake the Chinese government is making now again of trying to maintain peace and harmony and not stricting enforcing the ban of foreign invaders. Therefore, China should learn the lesson and this time blow the Vietnamese and all other invaders out of China's sovereign territories.

And it is the Vietnamese who are the ones who is taking an interest in S. China Sea only after oil was discovered. China had established sovereignty over these islands immediately after WW2 when they was no indication of oil. In any event it does not matter. China established its sovereignty in the Tang Dynasty and that is all China needs.

Let me remind you, that while Vietnamese sovereignty over the Paracel & Spratly islands has been confirmed by various countries, China's claim is purely self-claim. A few occasions that China protested were because China believed the islands belong to the Hainan province. But guess what, China was the only one who believed they own those islands.


This is laughable. Sovereignty is not decided by a vote of the international community. It is established by historical evidence. The fact that you are again not providing relevant proofs of sovereignty but are just blowing smoke obviously mean you have no proofs. All the world can say Vietnam owns these islands would not change the truth that China is the rightful sovereign owners because China has the historical evidence and that is all it needs. Furthermore, just for kicks, where is your proof that "various countries" have "confirmed" Vietnam's has the sovereignty?

China has always protested whenever other countries tried to claim sovereignty. I have already given reference to that above.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 18:41 #15

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

evensteven wrote:
The 1887 border agreement between Tonkin and China didn't mention any island in the South China sea. It was to draw the borderline between North Vietnam and South China. China did protest, but the argument was about borders in the Guangdong area, not about the Paracel or Spratly Islands. Get your facts straight. Then when France occupied the Paracel islands in 1938, China once again protested. However, the protest was only because China self-claimed sovereignty over the islands. This protest doesn't say anything and doesn't mean anything.


Of course the CONVENTION CONCERNING THE DELIMITATION OF THE BORDER BETWEEN CHINA AND TONKIN
(Signed at Beijing, June 26, 1887) was about the border between China and northern Vietnam or Tonkin at that time. Since it was about the land border between China and Tonkin it would not have mentioned about the sea boundary between the two areas. However, it did mention that

The isles which are to the east of the meridian of 105° 43' longitude east of Paris, which is to say of the north-south line passing through the eastern point of the island of Chagu [Tch’a-Kou or Ouan-chan (Tra-co)] and forming the border, are similarly assigned to China.


Longitude 105d 43m east of Paris corresponds to 108d 03m east of London. If you follow this line south it would put Xisha A. and Nansha A. to the east of that line. So if all the "isles" to the east of that line belonged to China then obviously Xisha A. and Nansha A. all belong to China. This treaty specifically use the wrods "the isles which are to the east of the meridian of 105d 43m longitude east of Paris" belong to China. It is perfectly logical to include Xisha A. and Nansha A. in these "isles." Therefore, this is a very good historical document to prove that these archipelagos actually belong to China. Thank you, boy, for pointing this out.

Of course, as I said before, the fact that China had incorporated S. China Sea into its administrative map in the Tang Dynasty is ipso facto sufficient to establish China's sovereignty over S. China Sea. The 1887 treaty is just another nail in Vietnam's coffin to claim sovereignty over Nansha A.

China protested in 1938 means China had exerted sovereignty over these islands. And that is all that matters. China did not abandon S. China Sea archipelagos. Therefore, Vietnam cannot "discover" them and certainly may not claim them as sovereign territories. The protest means everything in the eye of the law. It is only your own ignorance that you foolishly try to minimize it. Or maybe you do know its importance which is why you try to trick the Chinese and other peoples into believing it is not crucial which it really is.

You lose boy.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-23 17:31 #16

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

evensteven wrote:
Let's look at China's claim. China claimed sovereignty based on some passing-by Chinese fishermen who accidentally became the first ones to discover those islands. This in an unsubstantial and weak claim. To put things into perspective, Christopher Columbus was the first person to discover America, but the actual right of sovereignty belongs to whoever officially claim their use of the land first. Britain came and claimed the United States; France came and claimed parts of Canada; Portugal came and claimed Brazil. Spain, despite being the first one to discover North America, ended up with South America. Similarly in this case, even though the Chinese discovered the Paracel & Spratly islands first, it was the Vietnamese government during the Nguyen Dynasty that officially claimed them. Therefore, according to international laws of sovereignty--which is similarly being observed in America-- the islands officially belong to Vietnam. 'Nuff said?


You are showing total ignorance and full of errors that mark you either as an ignoramus or a deceitful sneak. Spain controlled almost half of N. America until it lost Mexico to the independence of the Mexican natives. California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico were all a part of Mexico. Subsequently, Mexico lost its possessoins to the north to America because of the Mexican-American War of 1846. Therefore, your nonsese about Spain ended up with S. America because "use of the land" is simply idiotic and not worth wasting time refuting.

In the end, the land first belongs to those who established sovereignty over it first and continued to assert sovereignty over it. Invaders may occupy other countries' land illegally for a time. But the sovereign country has the right to drive out the invaders and recover its sovereign territories. This is why China had driven out the Japanese even though they invaded China for decades. And this is why China has the sovereign right to drive out Vietnam from its sovereign territories now. So either leave or be driven out. As the Chinese saying goes, 不喝敬酒喝罚酒。

Vietnam does not have any valid reasons to claim S. China Sea archipelagos which is why this evensteven is blowing smoke and being facetious. This also reflects the attitude of the Vietnamese government and shows it is impossible for China to reason with these people. Their attitude is, we're not going to talk seriously with you since we don't have any valid claim. Therefore, we're just going to blow smoke and poke fun at you. If you're powerful then come and drive us out. Otherwise, we're here to stay and all the oil is our. Given this attitude of the Vietnamese, it is obvious the Chinese government cannot continue to drag this matter out. Vietnam's friendship is neither desirable nor necessary to China's economic development or national security. Slap it down hard now. And deal with it as time goes on. China had always been able to deal with Vietnam through its long history. No problem there.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-27 03:23 #17

  • sinhviendicuaghe
  • sinhviendicuaghe的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 4
  • 感谢您收到 0
Dear Chinese fellows,
First, I just want to ask you one question. What benefit do you get form those island? Is it the money, the resource and everything else? If your government is good enough to take care of you fellows, there wouldn't be so much hunger and suffer in your country for now. If it happened that China's government win over the island, what would they do with the benefit they get? They would feed your poor people or they would share among themself to buy thema luxury life? Thus, what if war happend? who are the one that though their life away in the sea so at the end those, who did nothing get the benefit? You chinese fellow, please think twice before you suport any kind of war.

Second, I would like to point out one thing to you fellows that you have a point to say that U.S. will struggle to fight a war with China in South China sea. It is true that they have to deal with so many problems for themself, but it is also a fact that South China Sea is one of their most concerning situation. Although it is hard for them to get in to a war, they would still find their way to solve the situation. Beside that, there is not only U.S. concerning about South China Sea, but other countries also concerning about the situation like Russia, Japanese, South Korean, and the European countries too. Those countries do not favor any country in Southeast Asia, so they wouldn't want any single country in Southeast Asia to control a large amount of water like what Chinese's government have claimed. If the situation get worse, those countries would take action for their own nation's benefits. Anyway, if the war broke out, if it is not the U.S. there will be other countries take side in the war. For the current time, the China's government seem like alone in the situation without support of the world nations.

My Chinese fellows, again, please think twice before you support any war!

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-27 03:43 #18

  • sinhviendicuaghe
  • sinhviendicuaghe的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 4
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: In the end, the land first belongs to those who established sovereignty over it first and continued to assert sovereignty over it. Invaders may occupy other countries' land illegally for a time. But the sovereign country has the right to drive out the invaders and recover its sovereign territories. This is why China had driven out the Japanese even though they invaded China for decades. And this is why China has the sovereign right to drive out Vietnam from its sovereign territories now. So either leave or be driven out. As the Chinese saying goes, 不喝敬酒喝罚酒。

Vietnam does not have any valid reasons to claim S. China Sea archipelagos which is why this evensteven is blowing smoke and being facetious. This also reflects the attitude of the Vietnamese government and shows it is impossible for China to reason with these people. Their attitude is, we're not going to talk seriously with you since we don't have any valid claim. Therefore, we're just going to blow smoke and poke fun at you. If you're powerful then come and drive us out. Otherwise, we're here to stay and all the oil is our. Given this attitude of the Vietnamese, it is obvious the Chinese government cannot continue to drag this matter out. Vietnam's friendship is neither desirable nor necessary to China's economic development or national security. Slap it down hard now. And deal with it as time goes on. China had always been able to deal with Vietnam through its long history. No problem there.


Dear a fellow Chinese,

I am totaly agree with your first line that the land first belongs to those who established sovereignty over it first and continued to assert sovereignty over it. So how about we find evidents for the sovereignty of China and Vietnam to see who is the owner of those island? I would be more than happy to do the research with you on this subjects so we can both understand more about this and I hope we can get to a point where we can agree with each other.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-27 09:55 #19

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

by sinhviendicuaghe » 2011-07-26 11:43

I am totaly agree with your first line that the land first belongs to those who established sovereignty over it first and continued to assert sovereignty over it. So how about we find evidents for the sovereignty of China and Vietnam to see who is the owner of those island? I would be more than happy to do the research with you on this subjects so we can both understand more about this and I hope we can get to a point where we can agree with each other.


I give below an article to provide you with some evidence of China's claim to sovereignty over the various archipelagos in the S. China Sea.

www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/topics/3754/t19234.htm

Jurisprudential Evidence To Support China's Sovereignty over the Nansha Islands

2000/11/17

China has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and it has ample jurisprudential evidence to support this.

A. Full and accurate historical data, both Chinese and foreign, has provided rich and substantial evidence to show that the Chinese people were the first to discover and name the Nansha Islands. As early as in the Han Dynasty that was more than two thousand years ago, the Chinese people discovered the Nansha Islands through their navigational experience and in the course of their productive activities over the years. All this was amply recorded in the books such as Records of Rarities by Yang Fu of the Eastern Han Dynasty, Records of Rarities in Southern Boundary by Wan Zhen of the Three Kingdoms Period and A History of Phnom by General Kang Tai of the East Wu State. All these historical records represent the Chinese people's cognition and appreciation of the land on which they lived and worked. They are of great importance in the perspective of international law. In view of the development of international law, these records and accounts of the discovery by the ancient Chinese people of the islands on the South China Sea bear abundant evidence to China's indisputable territorial sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. Obviously, the Nansha Islands are not land without owners, but rather they are an inalienable part of Chinese territory. No country in the world has the right to change China's legal status as the owner of the Nansha Islands in any way.

B. The fact that the Chinese people have developed the Nansha Islands and carried out productive activities there and that the Chinese Government has actually exercised jurisdiction over these islands has reinforced China's sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. After discovering the Nansha Islands, the Chinese people started to develop and engage in fishing, planting and other productive activities on the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters from the Tang and Song Dynasties at the latest. Fei Yuan of the Jin Dynasty (265-420 A.D.) wrote about the fishing and collecting of coral samples by the fishermen of China on the South China Sea in his article Chronicles of Guangzhou. After the Ming and Qing Dynasties, fishermen from Wenchang County and Qionghai County of Hainan Island used to sail southward with the northeasterly monsoon to the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters for fishing every winter and come back to Hainan with the southwesterly monsoon before the typhoon season started. The Chinese people lived and engaged in fishing, planting and other productive activities on the Nansha Islands individually at first, but they were later on organized with the approval and support of the Chinese Government. Even when the conditions on the Nansha Islands were not suitable for people to live, some of the Chinese fishermen still lived on the islands for years. For ages, Chinese fishermen would come and go between Hainan Island and Guangdong Province on the one hand and the Nansha Islands on the other for productive activities and they never failed to pay their taxes and fees to the Chinese Government.

C. The exercise of jurisdiction by the Chinese Government over the Nansha Islands is also manifested in a series of continued effective government behavior. After Emperor Zhenyuan of the Tang Dynasty (785-805AD) came to the throne, China included the Nansha Islands into its administrative map. It did so more conscientiously in the Ming and Qing Dynasties. A wealth of official documents of the Chinese Government, its local history books and official maps have recorded the exercise of jurisdiction by the successive governments of China over the Nansha Islands and recognized these islands as Chinese territory. Up till the beginning of this century, the Chinese Government had exercised peaceful jurisdiction over the Nansha Islands without any disputes.

Since the beginning of this century, the Chinese Government has undauntedly maintained China's sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. In the 1930s, France once invaded and occupied nine of the Nansha Islands, over which the Chinese Government immediately made diplomatic representations with the French Government and against which Chinese fishermen staged an organized resistance. Between 1912 and 1949 when China was a republic, the then Chinese Government took a series of active measures to safeguard its sovereignty. For instance, it furnished the Chinese fishermen and fishing boats that engaged in the fishing on the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters with China's national flags. It organized trips to the Nansha Islands for a survey of their history and geography. And it authorized a map-printing and toponymic agency to rename and approve the names of all the islands on the South China Sea including the Nansha Islands, individually and collectively.

During World War II, Japan invaded and occupied China's Nansha Islands. China made unremitting efforts for the recovery of these islands from the Japanese occupation. In 1943, China, the United States and the United Kingdom announced in the Cairo Declaration that all the territories that Japan had stolen from China should be "restored to China," including "Manchuria, Taiwan and the Penghu Islands." At that time, Japan put the Nansha Islands under the jurisdiction of Taiwan. The territories to be restored to China as identified in the Cairo Declaration naturally included the Nansha Islands. The 1945 Potsdam Proclamation confirmed once again that the stolen territories should be restored to China. According to the Cairo Declaration and Potsdam Proclamation, China recovered the Nansha Island in 1946. At the same time it went through a series of legal procedures and announced to the whole world that China had resumed the exercise of sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. Subsequently, the Chinese Government held a take-over ceremony and sent troops to the islands on garrison duty. An official map of the Nansha Islands was drawn and printed, the Nansha Islands were renamed, collectively and individually, and the earliest book of the physical geography of the Nansha Islands was also compiled and printed.

After the founding of the People's Republic of China, the Nansha Islands were incorporated into Guangdong Province and Hainan Province successively and the Chinese Gvoernment has all along maintained China's sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and taken effective actions for that.

In view of all this, the Chinese Government has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands. Some countries have claimed sovereignty of these islands on the ground that these islands are within their continental shelves or exclusive economic zones. According to international law and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, maritime rights and interests should be based on territorial sovereignty for the former derives from the latter. No country should be allowed to extend its maritime jurisdiction to the territories of other countries, still less should it be allowed to invade and occupy other's territory on the ground of exclusive economic zones or the continental shelves. All in all, any action by any country with regard to the islets, islands or reefs of the Nansha Islands, military or otherwise, constitutes encroachment of China's territorial sovereignty. It is illegal and null and void according to international law. It can in no way serve as a basis for a country's territorial claim, nor can it change China's indisputable legal status as having sovereignty over the Nansha Islands.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-28 01:05 #20

  • sinhviendicuaghe
  • sinhviendicuaghe的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 4
  • 感谢您收到 0
Dear my Chinese fellow,

I would like to call you Liang3a if you agree. To start with, I would like to thank you for provided me the information that you have. I enjoyed reading it and I understand the claim that China's government made over the island. But the information on your article lack of accuracy for the information in the article didn't have any suportive documents, article or historical record with it. Therefor, it have no value for discussing at this moment. By looking at the way you use English, I would say you should be in a professional class for writing English so well. So I think you should know the profesional way to support the claim of the article you post to me.

By that, I would not reject the claim or make any judgement on the article at the moment. The things that I wish you could provide me are the historical evidents for point "A" which claim that the the island belonged to China since 2000 years ago. It would be a historical record for the time the events happend which was confirmed by Scientists for the reality of the records (the age of the paper, the antiquities value of the documents etc...). It would be more effective to claim point "A" in the article.

We will talk about point "A" later after you provide me with those evidents, then we can dicussing it together again. I hope you and me will have a good dicussion on that point. For now, I will move on to talk about point "B" of the article you provide. For this point, the article claim that the chinese people have activities ont he island and government exercised jurisdiction over the the island from the Tang and Song Dynasties. There would be a confusion or missunderstanding at this point. Because at these time Vietnam was invaded by China and be a part of China. So the people who exercised Jurisdiction on these islands could be Vietnamese people under China's government. Under those time, the whole Vietnam territory considered the land of China. To use this point which I refereed to point "B" in the article would not proved that China have exercised jurisdictin over these islands. It was too long for this post already, and I am also out of time, so I will continue with point "C" next time.


I have been a pleasure to talk to you about this, Liang3a! I hope you would show me more of the knowlege I haven't have chance to know. Thank youo!

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-28 10:46 #21

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

sinh wrote:
By that, I would not reject the claim or make any judgement on the article at the moment. The things that I wish you could provide me are the historical evidents for point "A" which claim that the the island belonged to China since 2000 years ago. It would be a historical record for the time the events happend which was confirmed by Scientists for the reality of the records (the age of the paper, the antiquities value of the documents etc...). It would be more effective to claim point "A" in the article.


You're asking me for the documents that prove China's sovereignty over the S. China Sea islands. Obviously these documents would be in various museums or in the collection of wealthy collectors. I'm not an archaeologist so I don't know of professional tests to authenticate these documents with carbon dating, etc. However, there are many references to these documents all through China's history. And that is good enough for me. These constitute a preponderance of circumstantial evidence which as you know is enough even in a court of law. If you're particularly interested in finding scientific proofs of the particular physical documents, then I'd suggest you hire a lawyer to do a professional search or approach the Chinese government to allow your experts to examine them for authentication. I'm sure you will at the end of the day be satisfied of their authenticity. I'm the wrong person to ask to provide actual proofs of their authenticity. There are also maps here at this forum. You can go look at the other threads for other references and maps of various times and dynasties. But they're mostly in Chinese.

Below is a link that talk about the various books that contain references to the S. China Sea and countries around it such as Cambodia. The document is in Chinese.

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A%E5 ... E3%80%8B#1

There are many other physical evidence of the presence of the Chinese in these islands since the time of Han Dynasty. Vietnam was a part of China during the Han Dynasty when many Chinese prisoners were exiled to Vietnam. Below I give a link to the findings of a Chinese archaeologist by the name of Wang Heng Jie in the Nansha A. or Spratly A. which includes coins and ceremic artifacts through almost every Chinese dynasty from Han Dynasty. It is in Chinese.


http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=733912024

【考古人】王恒【héng】杰【jié】

王恒杰获准在太平岛上考古,收获很大。找到了包括汉代米字庄印纹硬陶、宋代青瓷
片、明末清初的团风朵书残碗及东汉的五株钱和“熙宁重宝”、嘉庆、道光、咸丰
的通宝铜钱等珍贵历史文物。


在永登暗沙,王恒杰和渔民们发现并打捞到了唐代盛水器──陶罐碎片。这是王恒
杰在南沙找到的第一件“宝物”。随后他们又在福禄寺礁找到了器底印有"永葆长春
"和器底有蟹纹及“月中白兔”等款文的中国古代青瓷碎片,还捡到了“元通宝”、
”大德通宝”铜钱各一枚。特别令王恒杰兴奋是,他们在南沙海域水下找到了一杆
铸有“大清广造”四个隶书汉字的清代大铁锚。锚杆上那沉睡海底数百年的斑斑锈
迹,便是有力的证据。王恒杰告诉渔民,捡到这些文物,一定要保持原状、原貌才
有价值
渔船离开太平岛后,继续南行。在皇路礁王恒杰采集到了几件青瓷片,器底款有
“荣合”或“福”字字样,大多是广东民间产品,还捡到一枚宋代的 “熙宁重宝”
铜钱;在南通礁又捡到一件青瓷残片,残片外底有一方款,内有一长柄直伸的青花
叶。这件青花瓷片后来被带回北京经著名文物鉴定专家史树青教授鉴认,这是用来
作航海仪的水器残片。
==============================[/color]

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-28 11:18 #22

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/co ... 4.full.pdf

Above is another link in English that offer historical proofs of China's sovereignty over S. China Sea archipelagos. Anybody interested can read it and go to the links referenced by the article for more proofs.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 01:08 #23

  • sinhviendicuaghe
  • sinhviendicuaghe的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 4
  • 感谢您收到 0
Thank you my dear friend! I am very appreciate for the resources that you provide me and the time, the hard work that you took to provided me with those informations. By that, I could learn more about your country's history. In return for your kindness, I will carefully read and analyze your resources and share with you my point of views and my limited understanding about the subject. It will take a little more time for me to reply to you. I will read them with a great appreciation of your work.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 06:38 #24

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

sinh wrote:
Thank you my dear friend! I am very appreciate for the resources that you provide me and the time, the hard work that you took to provided me with those informations. By that, I could learn more about your country's history. In return for your kindness, I will carefully read and analyze your resources and share with you my point of views and my limited understanding about the subject. It will take a little more time for me to reply to you. I will read them with a great appreciation of your work.


If you can't read Chinese and you would like to read the article of which I posted some quotes in Chinese, you can use the following to search the Google and then use the translation feature to translate it into English. It works for me. I hope you have the Google translation feature also. The translation isn't too good but you'll get a general idea.

【考古人】王恒杰

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 06:44 #25

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
On second thought, I think I'll just post the entire translated article about Wang Hengjie's trip to the Nansha A. I hope the forum monitor won't mind:

Wang Hengjie (1932-1996) famous archeology, history experts. 为我国的民族教育和边疆民族考古做出了艰苦卓绝的努力与特殊重大的贡献。 For the country's national education and national archaeological frontier made arduous efforts and significant contributions to the special. 在祖国东北大地、西南边疆、大凉山、云南藏区、世界屋脊、浩瀚的南海诸岛进行的踏勘调查,不仅在考古学界有重要影响,对论证和维护国家的边疆、海疆主权也极具重大意义。 Land in the motherland northeast, southwest border, Daliangshan, Yunnan Tibet, Roof of the World, the vast South China Sea Islands to the reconnaissance survey, not only in the archaeological community has an important impact on the demonstration and maintenance of national frontiers, sovereignty, territorial waters also very important significance. 两次徒步入西藏,七下西沙,两度到南沙。 Twice into Tibet on foot, seven Sea, twice to the Spratly Islands. 首次在西藏发现新石器时代遗址与遗物,并证实与甘肃齐家文化属同一系统,在南海的考古调查以不可辩驳的实证,揭示了南海自古以来即为中国的领域。 The first Neolithic site discovered in Tibet with relics, and confirmed with the Gansu Qijia culture is the same system, the archaeological survey in the South China Sea with irrefutable evidence, the South China Sea since ancient times is revealed areas of China. 教书育人亲切有方,深受学生爱戴,重视科学实践,成就斐然。 Teaching and warm well and deeply loved by students, emphasis on scientific practice, and achieved striking success. 多次获得北京市教育局、教育委员会、总工会、中共北京市委市政府、国家民委、国家教委、国务院等颁发的优秀证书和表彰,并被称为南沙考古第一人,被海军授予“南沙卫士”的光荣称号。 Has won the Beijing Education Bureau, Education Committee, Federation of Trade Unions, the CPC Beijing Municipal Government, the State Ethnic Affairs Commission, the State Board of Education, Department of State issued a certificate of excellence and recognition, and was the first person known as the Spratly Islands Archaeology, the Navy awarded the "Nansha "Guardian of the glorious title.

王教授发表了近百篇论文和《春秋后语辑考》、《迪庆藏族社会史》、《傈僳族》、《民族考古学基础》等专著,受到学界高度评价。 Professor Wong has published nearly one hundred papers and "Spring and Autumn test series after the words", "Diqing Tibetan social history", "Lisu", "national archaeological basis," such as monographs, spoke highly of the academic community. 王教授的业绩广泛见于《光明日报》、《人民日报》、《北京日报》、《中国青年报》、《工人时报》、《新华文摘》等报刊和中央电视台、北京电视台、中央与北京广播电视台以及海南、广州、南方各地方媒体的报道。 Professor Wang's performance widely seen, "Guangming Daily", "People's Daily", "Beijing Daily", "China Youth Daily", "worker Times", "Xinhua Digest" and other newspapers and China Central Television, Beijing Television Station, the central and Beijing Broadcasting TV and Hainan, Guangzhou, South of local media reports. 香港、台湾、新加坡等东南亚各媒体及美国、日本、欧洲等记者亦十分关注,采访报道。 Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and other Southeast Asian media and the United States, Japan, Europe and other reporters also very concerned about the coverage. 在1994年和1995年应邀赴台参加南海学术研讨会期间,受到香港、台湾及海外华人学者的热切赞誉。 In 1994 and 1995, during the symposium were invited to Taiwan to participate in the South China Sea by Hong Kong, Taiwan and overseas Chinese scholars eager to praise.

环球时报记者采访报道: Global Times reporter interviewed reported:

在《环球时报》记者去广东、海南采访期间,很多人都对我们提到了王恒杰的名字。 In the "Global Times" reporter to Guangdong, Hainan during the interview, many people have mentioned to us the name of Wang Hengjie. 王恒杰不仅是大陆唯一登上过太平岛(台湾当局控制)的人,而且他在南海诸岛上发现的大量文物,有力证明了西沙群岛、南沙群岛在秦汉时代就与祖国大陆紧密相连,他被赞誉为“中国南沙考古第一人”。 Wang Hengjie the only continent not only topped the Taiping Island (the Taiwan authorities to control) the person, and he found on the South China Sea islands large number of artifacts, a testament to the Paracel Islands, Spratly Islands in the Qin and Han era, closely linked with the mainland, he been praised as "China's Nansha Archaeological first person."

王恒杰教授是中央民族大学的一位考古学专家,身有残疾,只有一只胳膊,人称“独臂教授”。 Professor Wang Hengjie the Central University for Nationalities, an archeology expert, have a disability, only one arm, called the "one-armed professor." 20世纪90年代初,他将研究重点转向南海主权问题的考古论证上。 The early 1990s, he would study the focus to the issue of sovereignty of the South China Sea on the archaeological arguments. 从1991年至他逝世的1996年,这位独臂教授年年自费考察南海诸岛,西沙考察过7次,南沙考察过两次。 From 1991 to his death in 1996, the mid-armed professor visits South China Sea islands at their own expense, examine seven times Xisha, Nansha inspected twice. 1992年5月,王恒杰教授首次去南沙考古,南沙群岛中最大的太平岛是他的重点考察目标。 In May 1992, Professor Wang Hengjie first to Nansha archaeological, Spratly Islands in the Pacific Island is the largest focus of his study objectives. 那次他搭乘的是在南沙海域捕鱼的渔船,不过,当船靠近太平岛时,渔民不敢登岛,王教授坚定地说:“你们不去,我就自己游过去!”5月22日,王恒杰一行二人乘一个小舢板划向太平岛。 That he is in the Nansha Islands aboard fishing vessels, however, when the boat near the Pacific island, fishermen did not dare landing, Professor Wang said firmly: "You do not go, I swim past on their own!" May 22 Japan, Wang Hengjie row to row in the two by a BUTTERFLY Taiping Island. 为避免误会,王恒杰还举了一个画有红十字的小旗,向台军表示自己是要“求医”。 To avoid misunderstanding, Wang Hengjie also give a picture of the Red Cross flags, to Taiwan said he is "doctor." 最后他成功登岛,并与守卫太平岛的台军士兵聊天。 Finally he succeeded in landing, and with the soldiers guarding the Pacific island of Taiwan to chat. 王恒杰找到很多从秦汉到明清时期的陶瓷和铜钱等古董。 Wang Hengjie find a lot from the Han to the Ming and Qing Dynasties of ceramics and coins and other antiques. 离开太平岛时,台军送给他很多淡水、饼干、衣物,一名正在站岗的士兵来不及准备礼物,将随身带的打火机给了王恒杰。 Leave the Pacific island, Taiwan gave him a lot of fresh water, biscuits, clothing, a guard of soldiers was too late to prepare a gift, will carry a lighter to the Wang Hengjie.

南沙守备部队的卢永华政委说,1996年王恒杰去世时,海军南沙守礁士兵在永暑礁以海军安葬海上牺牲烈士的最高礼仪为他举行了庄严的海葬仪式。 Nansha garrison's political commissar, said Lu Yonghua, Wang Hengjie died in 1996, the Navy Nansha reefs in order to soldiers in the Naval Wing Reef burial at sea ritual sacrifice of martyrs as he held the highest a solemn burial at sea ceremony. 王恒杰对南海的贡献正如南沙卫士在给他的悼词中写的那样,“他用自己的学识、自己的生命向世界再一次证明了一个真理:南沙是由中国人最早发现、开发、经营的,南沙自古属中华。” Wang Hengjie contribution to the South China Sea as the Nansha guards in his eulogy to write it, "he used his knowledge, his own life to the world once again proved the truth: the Nansha was first discovered by the Chinese people, development, operation, Nansha is the Chinese since ancient times. "


王恒杰,中国第一位自费赴南海考古登上太平岛、到达曾母暗沙考察的边疆历史考古学家。 Wang Hengjie, China's first archaeological boarded at their own expense to go to Taiping Island, the South China Sea to reach the James Shoal archaeologists study the history of the frontier.

首次赴南沙 First go to the Nansha

1992年5月13日8时, 中央民族大学历史系从事边疆考古研究的王恒杰教授,搭乘渔轮,从海南省琼海县潭门港出发, 自费前往南沙群岛考古。 At 8:00 on May 13, 1992, the Central University for Nationalities in the frontier history of archaeological research Professor Wang Hengjie, take the fishing vessel from the Lake County, Hainan Province Qionghai gate port of departure, at their own expense to the Spratly Islands Archaeology. 为了去南沙考古,王恒杰妻子张雪惠把当时家中仅有的820元钱全部交给了他,为了去南沙,王恒杰也作了最坏的打算。 In order to Nansha archaeological, Wang Hengjie wife Zhang Xuehui was home to only 820 dollars all over him, to go to the Nansha, Wang Hengjie also made for the worst. 在海口出发时,他将两笔钱款交给海南省统战部周部长,并向他托付了后事 In the seaport, he would pen two weeks of money to the Minister of United Front Work Department of Hainan Province, he was entrusted to a funeral


“万一我回不来,请你将中央电视台借给我的回北京飞机票款还给中央电视台,另一笔钱交给我的亲属。” 海上的生活并不浪漫。 "If I come back, would you please lend me the CCTV section of the plane ticket back to Beijing China Central Television, the other money to my relatives." Sea life is not romantic. 南沙海域自古就有“危险地带”的称谓,明礁暗沙遍布,地理气象复杂,航路充满艰险。 Nansha Islands since ancient times the "danger zone" in the title, the dark sand out across the reef, geography weather complex, full of dangerous route. 晕船、少水、缺蔬菜,对于王恒杰这位60岁的独臂老人来说是最大的考验,但他都挺了过来。 Seasick, less water, lack of vegetables, for the 60-year-old armed Wang Hengjie old is the biggest test, but hang around. 经过七天七夜的航行,渔船到达南沙群岛的门户永登暗沙,这是王恒杰第一次踏入南沙海域,一种平生从未有过的痛快与满足油然而生。 After seven days and nights of sailing, fishing boats to reach the gateway to the Nansha Islands Yongdeng shoal, which is Wang Hengjie the first time into the Nansha Islands, one never had his life happy and to meet spontaneously.

Yongdeng shoal fishing boats approaching, Wang Hengjie see an annular reefs, around the central pool of still water, he can not help but blurt exclaim, "ah, Shitang," and he said to the fisherman about Sha why "a thousand miles Changsha", Nansha why is called " Miles Shitang. " 在这个“石塘”中,他们发现了海洋动物玳瑁, 渔民们说玳瑁又叫”十三鳞”,因为它身上有十三块珍贵的鳞甲,全身都是宝。 In this "Shitang", they found marine animals sea turtle, sea turtle known as fishermen say "Thirteen scales," because it has thirteen precious body scales, body is a treasure. 王恒杰说” 它岂止是宝贝,还是历史的见证呢,早在两千多年前,咱们的祖先就以玳瑁作为最珍贵的礼物向中央朝庭纳贡,这些事儿史书上都记得清清楚楚。而玳瑁,在中国只有在南沙才可以得到,所以玳瑁生长在南沙,也就雄辩地证明了在两千多年前,我们的祖先早已就是南沙的主人了。玳瑁就是一个有力的证据,我们要好好保护它们”。 Wang Hengjie said, "It is more than just a baby, or a history of witness it, as early as 2,000 years ago, our ancestors on the sea turtle as the most precious gift to the center-court tribute, history books, remember these things clearly. The hawksbill, only in the Nansha in Chinese can be, so the growth in the Nansha sea turtle, also eloquent testimony to 2,000 years ago, our ancestors already is the owner of the Nansha Islands. hawksbill is a strong evidence, we have to take protect them. "
在永登暗沙,王恒杰和渔民们发现并打捞到了唐代盛水器——陶罐碎片。 In Yongdeng shoal, Wang Hengjie and fishermen have found and recovered to the Tang Dynasty, water containers - pottery fragments. 这是王恒杰在南沙找到的第一件“宝物”。 This is Wang Hengjie found in the Nansha first "treasure." 随后他们又在福禄寺礁找到了器底印有”永葆长春”和器底有蟹纹及“月中白兔”等款文的中国古代青瓷碎片,还捡到了“元通宝”、 ”大德通宝”铜钱各一枚。 Then they found a reef in the Fluke device at the end of temple bearing the "eternal Changchun" and the device at the end of a crab pattern and the "mid-Rabbit" and other subparagraphs of the ancient Chinese porcelain pieces, also picked up, "Yuan Tong Bao", " Dade reign of "coins each one. 特别令王恒杰兴奋是,他们在南沙海域水下找到了一杆铸有“大清广造”四个隶书汉字的清代大铁锚。 Wang Hengjie particularly so excited that they found water in the Nansha area a cast of "Qing create a broad" big four anchor the Qing Dynasty official script of Chinese characters. 锚杆上那沉睡海底数百年的斑斑锈迹,便是有力的证据。 Anchor on the sea for hundreds of years that sleeping rust stains, is strong evidence. 王恒杰告诉渔民,捡到这些文物,一定要保持原状、原貌才有价值 Wang Hengjie told the fishermen picked up the relics, we must maintain the status quo, only the value of original

冒死登上太平岛 Risking board Taiping Island

按照王恒杰的分析,最有可能找到先民遗物的地方是岛礁,尤其是那些有人居住过的岛礁。 According to Wang Hengjie analysis, the most likely place to find relics of our ancestors reefs, especially those who had inhabited the islands and reefs. 船至双子礁,王恒杰要求登岛看看。 Ship to the twin reefs, Wang Hengjie required landing to see. 船长说“不行。北子礁上有菲律宾军队,南子礁上有越南军队,渔船靠近,他们就开枪射击。”果然,当渔船距岛1公里时,岛上的外国驻军就开枪警告。 The captain said "No, son reef on the North Philippine Army, the South Vietnamese army on the sub-reefs, fishing boats near, they opened fire." Sure enough, when fishing from the Island 1 km, the island's foreign troops fired warning shots on . 中国人不能登中国的土地,一种极大的屈辱感在王恒杰心中久久不能逝去。 Chinese people can not register the land of China, a great sense of humiliation at the Wang Hengjie not mind a long time gone. 双子礁不能上去,王恒杰把最大的希望寄托在由台湾当局军队驻守的南沙最大、最重要的岛屿——太平岛。 Twin reef can not go, Wang Hengjie the greatest hopes Taiwan authorities by the military stationed in the Nansha largest and most important island - Taiping Island. 渔船绕过双子礁,进入郑和群礁海域,王恒杰梦中的太平岛已遥遥在望。 Fishing around the twin reefs into the sea reefs Zheng, Wang Hengjie distant dream of the Pacific islands have been in sight. 眼望着梦寐以求的太平岛,王恒杰决定冒险一搏。 Eyes looking at the Pacific Island dream, Wang Hengjie decided to take a try. 船长派曾当过海军的侄儿陈泽和驾小艇护送王恒杰登岛。 Worked for the Navy's nephew sent the captain and driving Ze Wang Hengjie escort boat landing. 王恒杰选择中午1l时驾舢板小艇驶向太平岛。 Wang Hengjie choice when driving at noon 1l sampan boats sail Taiping Island. 因为,此时海上能见度较高,小船容易被岛上驻军发现。 Because, at this high visibility at sea, the boat can easily be found on the island garrison. 太平岛周围布满了水雷,舢板直接向雷区开,是让岛上驻军明白,此船不是来袭击的。 Pacific around the island full of mines, minefields to open directly to the sampan, the island garrison is to understand that this ship is not to attack. 王恒杰高举自制的•—面白底红字的小红十字旗去岛上”求医”。 Wang Hengjie holding homemade • - face red and white Red Cross flag to the small island of "doctor." 他站在船头,最大限度地把自己暴露在对方的视线和枪弹射程之内。 He stood in the bow, exposing himself to maximize each other's sight and within the range of bullets. 距岛两海里,舢板驶进了雷区。 Two sea miles away from the island, sampan pulled into the minefield. 突然,王恒杰听到了枪声,这意味着岛上驻军发现了他们。 Suddenly, Wang Hengjie heard gunshots, which means that they found the island garrison. 果然,王恒杰看到一名哨兵跑向营房报告去了。 Sure enough, Wang Hengjie saw a guard ran to report to the barracks. 一会儿,哨兵出来,向舢板打手势,要他们退出雷区,顺安全水道靠向码头。 While, Sentinel out of the sampan gestured to them to exit the mine, along the waterway toward their terminal security. 当舢板靠近码头时,一艘炮艇拦住去路。 When the sampan near the pier, blocked by gunboat. 一名全部武装的军官问王恒杰是从哪里来的'陈泽和忙回答是从海南岛来的。 An armed officer asked Wang Hengjie all come from 'Ze and the answer is busy come from Hainan Island. 王恒杰则大声说”我是从北京来的,见到你们非常高兴,南中国海绝对是中国领土。” 军官觉得奇怪,在这南沙小岛上还是第一次见到大陆来的同胞,军官忙说”噢,原来是自己的同胞,我们向你们开枪,很不好意思呀尸正恒杰说“你们做得对,南沙形势这么紧张,情况复杂,开枪是为了保卫我们的疆土,有什么不对?”军官问“你们是干什么的?”王恒杰答“我们是来岛上求医的,我要求见你们的长官。 Wang Hengjie is saying "I come from Beijing, see you very happy, the South China Sea are Chinese territory, absolutely." Officers find it strange that this is the first time on the Nansha islands to the mainland to see the fellow officers said quickly "Oh, that is their own people, we opened fire to you, very sorry ah dead is L & C said," You have done right, Nansha situation so tense, complicated shot to defend our territory, what's wrong? "the officer asked," You do? "Wang Hengjie answer" we come to the island doctor, and I asked to see your Executive. ”军官说“求医可以,但见长官不行。 "Said the officer" can seek treatment, the whole Executive no. 咱们'三不通'啊。 Let 'three barrier' ah. ”无奈, 王恒杰只好说出真情,”我是考古专家,为论证南沙的主权前来太平岛考古,我一定要见长官。 "Helpless, Wang Hengjie had to tell the truth," I am archaeologists, to demonstrate the sovereignty of the Spratly Islands to come to Pacific Island Archaeology, I have to see the Executive. ”说着将自己的和一位台湾学者的名片递给军官。军官见是考古学家,便下船回去请示。一会儿他回来说“将军同意和教授见面。 "Then to his business card and handed a Taiwanese scholar officers. Officers see the archaeologists, they disembarked to go back to consult. For a while he came back and said" the general consent and meet professors. ” "
南沙岛礁论古今 Nansha Islands on the ancient and modern
Wang Hengjie two disembark landing, given a warm welcome to come to watch the men applauded. 经过一番盘查后,太平岛台军最高长官、南沙守备司令(少将)会见了来自北京的王恒杰教授。 After some interrogation, the Pacific island of Taiwan highest office, Nansha garrison commander (Major General), met with Professor Wang Hengjie from Beijing. 司令是山东人,为人和气,对两位大陆客人的态度既不冷也不热,招待他们进客厅喝茶休息,还让部下送来了冷饮、饼干请王恒杰吃。 Commander is from Shandong, and his kind, the attitude of the two mainland guests neither cold nor hot, serve them tea break into the living room, also sent a cold drink to men, cookies, please Wang Hengjie eat. 王恒杰边吃边和司令交谈。 Wang Hengjie ate and commander of the conversation. 他们谈考古、论南沙形势。 They talk about archeology, the situation on the Nansha Islands. 王恒杰说,”南沙绝对是中国的领土领海,任何外国人都休想打南沙的主意。我这次来,就是凭着科学家的良知,搜集更多的证据,去堵住别人的嘴,我坚信,历史是不容篡改的。至于南沙的开发,我认为海峡两岸应该携手来做,也是完全可以做到的。”将军点头赞许。 Wang Hengjie said, "China's Nansha absolute territorial waters, any foreigner can never expect to hit the Nansha idea. I came here, is relying on the conscience of scientists to collect more evidence to block someone else's mouth, I firmly believe that History is not to be tampered with. As for the development of Nansha, I think the Taiwan Strait should work together to do, but also can be done. "General nodded approval. 突然,将军拿起王恒杰身边的帆布挎包和照相机问道“你是不是中共派来搞情报的9”王恒杰说“我这个样子像搞情报的吗?中共要派也不会派我这样一个断臂残疾人啊,”将军仔细检查了挎包和照相机后说“请原谅,这是我的职责。”王恒杰严肃地说“我是自费来南沙考察的,上岛是为了搜集先人遗物,进行考古研究,至于军事设施,我们不需要看。长官若是信不过,我们可以订个'君子协议'。”将军说, ”那倒不必,不过,你在岛上寻找文物,要听从我们的安排。”停了一会,将军又问王恒杰对民进党怎么看,面对这个复杂的问题,王恒杰答非所问地说了一句“还是一个中国好。对不对,”将军非常满意地说“王教授,您是第一位登上南中国海岛礁取得考古成果的大陆科学家,您这次要获奖了。” Suddenly, the generals took the side of the canvas bag and Wang Hengjie camera asked "Are you a Communist intelligence sent out 9" Wang Hengjie said, "I like this as you engage in intelligence? CPC would not send me to send a disabled arm people ah, "the general double-check the bag and the camera and said," Excuse me, this is my duty. "Wang Hengjie seriously said," I was at their own expense to visit the Nansha Islands, the island is to collect relics of their ancestors, archaeological research, As for the military facilities, we do not need to see. Executive if the letter, however, we can set a 'gentleman's agreement'. "said the general," That would not, however, you find artifacts on the island, to listen to our arrangements. "stopped a will, the generals asked Wang Hengjie how the DPP to see the face of this complex issue, Wang Hengjie irrelevant answer to say "China is still a good. right," the general said with great satisfaction, "Professor Wang, you are the first boarded the South China Sea continental reefs made archaeological scientists, you won the prize this time. "

王恒杰获准在太平岛上考古,收获很大。 Wang Hengjie allowed to Taiping Island Archaeology, a lot. 找到了包括汉代米字庄印纹硬陶、宋代青瓷片、明末清初的团风朵书残碗及东汉的五株钱和“熙宁重宝”、嘉庆、道光、咸丰的通宝铜钱等珍贵历史文物。 Found, including Han-meter word Zhuang stamped hard pottery, Song celadon pieces, Ming and Qing style duo book group and the Eastern Han Dynasty of five residues bowl money and "Xining treasures", Jiaqing, dynasty, Xianfeng's reign of coins and other precious historical relics. 王恒杰离岛前,要求拍照留念,将军破例满足了他,但指定由驻军为他拍照留影,)中晒后再寄给王恒杰。 Wang Hengjie Islands before the requirements take pictures, the general exception to meet him, but he was designated by the garrison to take a photo,) in the sun and then sent to Wang Hengjie. 王恒杰选中指挥部门前刻有“南疆锁钥”题字的收复太平岛纪念碑做背景拍照,说是碑上有“中华民国1946年立”的字样,极具纪念意义。 Wang Hengjie select the command in front engraved with "southern lock and key" the recovery of Pacific Island memorial inscription to do background pictures, said monument of "Republic of China established in 1946," the words, very memorable. 负责拍照的军官建议他换一个风光优美的背景,王恒杰严肃地说, “这是历史,没有这个,你们不会守在这里,我也来不了。” 王恒杰临走时,将军又让部下给他送来9套衣服,说是海上不能洗澡。 The officer suggested that he is responsible for taking pictures for a beautiful background scenery, Wang Hengjie said gravely, "This is history, do not have this, you will not stay here, I can not come." Wang Hengjie Before leaving, the general sent him letting his men to 9 sets of clothes, said that the sea can not take a bath. 让他穿脏一件扔一件,保重身体,希望他完成对南沙的考察。 Let him wear throw a dirty one, take care of themselves, hoping to complete his study of the Spratlys. 官兵们也纷纷送来香烟、饮料、食品,装满了小舢板。 Officers and men who have also sent cigarettes, drinks, food, full of BUTTERFLY. 船刚离码头,一位士兵跑过来,搜遍全身,找到一只打火机掷向舢板高喊,“王教授,别见笑,送给你做个纪念吧,” “再见了,亲人们,”王恒杰挥手与岛上官兵告别,船上、岸上“再见”声响成一片,大家都哭了。 Boat dock just off, a soldier ran, searched the body, to find a lighter thrown sampan shouting, "Professor Wang, do not laugh at, to give you mark it to be," "Goodbye, pro-people," Wang Hengjie soldiers waved goodbye with the island, boat, shore, "Goodbye" sound into one, everyone cried. 这种血浓于水的骨肉之情是谁也割不断的。 This flesh and blood Gurouzhiqing who also inseparable. 船渐渐远去,王恒杰看见岛上还有几个士兵爬到高高的椰树上仍在向他们挥手告别。 Boat go away, Wang Hengjie see the island and several soldiers are still on the climb up the tall coconut trees waving goodbye to them.

放歌曾母暗沙 Sing James Shoal

渔船离开太平岛后,继续南行。 After the boat left the Pacific island, continue southbound. 在皇路礁王恒杰采集到了几件青瓷片,器底款有“荣合”或“福”字字样,大多是广东民间产品,还捡到一枚宋代的“熙宁重宝”铜钱;在南通礁又捡到一件青瓷残片,残片外底有一方款,内有一长柄直伸的青花叶。 King Road in the reef Wang Hengjie collected a few pieces of celadon pieces, the end device shall have "co-Wing" or "Fu" character, most of the Guangdong folk product, also picked up a Song, "Xining heavy treasure" coins; reef in Nantong Also picked up a porcelain fragments, fragments have a party outer end section, with a long handle for straight inside the blue and white leaves. 这件青花瓷片后来被带回北京经著名文物鉴定专家史树青教授鉴认,这是用来作航海仪的水器残片。 This blue and white porcelain pieces were later brought back to Beijing cultural relics identified by the well-known expert Professor Shi Shuqing Kam recognition, which is used as a navigation instrument water trap debris. 渔船离开南通礁南行了八天八夜,经北康暗沙,南康暗沙和榆桠暗沙,于1992年6月4日,来到了一片绿灰色的海域,船长陈老大兴奋地说“曾母暗沙到了,”王恒杰站在船头,心情异常激动,终于到了祖国的最南疆了。 Fishing boats leave Nantong reef south for eight days eight nights, the North Hong shoal, Nankang shoal and Yu Sam shoal, on June 4, 1992, came to a green-gray waters, the captain Chen boss said excitedly, "was the mother shoal up, "Wang Hengjie standing on the bow, and I feel very emotional, and finally to the most southern of the motherland. 他情不自禁地唱起了“我们的祖国多么辽阔广大……”的歌。 He can not help singing "What a vast majority of our country ..." song. 船长高喊”拿酒来,咱们祭神,”王恒杰与19位船员共同燃香拜神,把酒、干杯。 The captain shouted "Najiu to, we Worship," Wang Hengjie and 19 crew members worship together incense, wine, toast. 他祈祷“愿曾母娘娘及诸神保佑我的国家国运兴隆,南疆永固。”激动的王恒杰在他的记事本上郑重地写道”1992年6月4日,我来到了祖国最南疆曾母暗沙,我感到无比幸福,无比光荣、无比骄傲,”独闯南沙真“英雄”1992年6月16日清晨,王恒杰搭乘的“琼渔XX”号渔船完成了南沙捕鱼、考察双重任务,安全地回到海南三亚市码头。 He prayed "May the gods have blessed Mother Goddess and the booming fortunes of my country, southern Everlasting." Excited Wang Hengjie in his notebook, wrote on solemnly, "June 4, 1992, I came to the motherland and the South Xinjiang James Shoal, I feel very happy, very glorious, very proud, "armed with Nansha true" hero "June 16, 1992 early morning, Wang Hengjie take the" Joan fishing XX "fishing boat fishing in Nansha done to study the double task, safely back in Sanya City, Hainan pier. 当渔民们扶着被疾病和风浪折磨得虚弱不堪的王恒杰走下船来时,他差点晕倒在沙滩上。 When the fishermen were escorted by disease and storms tortured badly weakened Wang Hengjie disembark to walk, he nearly fainted on the beach. 当天下午,海南省政府即把王恒杰接到海口市,省长刘剑峰感谢他为海南、为祖国做了一件大好事,当场奖励他1万元钱,并批准他将全部文物标本带回北京研究,将来再交还给海南省。 In the afternoon, the Hainan provincial government that is Wang Hengjie received Haikou, Hainan Governor Liu Jianfeng thank him for, for the motherland to do a very good thing, on the spot reward him 10,000 yuan of money, and to permit him to study all the artifacts back to Beijing samples the future, and then returned to Hainan.
Wang Hengjie hard going through dry Nansha archaeological Xin Wan, and achieved fruitful results, he demonstrated a lot of precious cultural relics of China's sovereignty over the South China Sea, the Nansha China has a history of at least 1000 forward. 他的科研成果,得到了国家有关部门的充分肯定和积极的评价。 His research, has been fully affirmed by national authorities and positive evaluation. 北京各大媒体对他的事迹都做了重点报道。 Beijing's major media of his deeds are done highlights. 著名作家冰心为他题写了“你们的工作是极其艰苦而重要的,你们的前途无量” 的赞词。 Well-known writer Bing Xin as he wrote, "Your work is extremely difficult and important, your promising," the eulogy. 1995年初,美国哥伦比亚广播公司派记者专访了王恒杰教授,他独臂闯南沙考古,论证南沙主权的科研成果和事迹,传遍了全球,鼓舞着全世界的中国人和华人华侨。 In early 1995, CBS sent reporters to interview Professor Wang Hengjie, he armed break Nansha archaeological, scientific research and demonstrate the sovereignty of Nansha deeds, spread throughout the world, inspiring the world of Chinese and overseas Chinese.

永远的“南沙卫士” Forever "Nansha" Guardian

1995年5月,王恒杰第二次赴南沙考察。 In May 1995, Wang Hengjie go to the Nansha second study. 回京后不久,既被确诊为肺癌晚期。 Back to Beijing soon after, both were diagnosed with advanced lung cancer. 面对死神,他毅然放弃住院治疗,加紧整理研究南沙文物考古资料,对文物进行修复、分类、撰写论文和调查报告。 The face of death, he gave up hospitalized, step finishing of the Nansha archaeological data, repair of cultural relics, classification, writing papers and survey reports. 他的论文公开发表后,极大地推进了我国对南沙考古研究的进程。 After the publication of his paper, which greatly promoted China's Nansha archaeological research process.

1995年8月30日,一直关注跟踪采访王恒杰教授的新华社解放军分社记者查春明在其家中采访王恒杰时,已卧床不起,说话吃力的王恒杰教授动情地对查记者说:“我是用生命来收集文物,证明南沙自古属中华。” 王恒杰七赴西沙,两赴南沙考察和身患绝症仍奋斗不息的消息,通过媒体的报道,在社会上引起了强烈反响。 August 30, 1995, interview with Professor Wang Hengjie been concerned about tracking the Xinhua News Agency People's Liberation Army bureau correspondent Zha Chunming Wang Hengjie interviewed in their homes, has been bed-ridden, struggling to speak of Professor Wang Hengjie emotion of the investigation, told reporters: "I am with life to collect artifacts that belong to the Nansha China since ancient times. "Wang Hengjie seven to go to Sea, and the two went to visit terminally ill Nansha still fighting off the message, through media reports, aroused a strong reaction. 海军南沙守备部队党委授子王恒杰“南沙卫士”荣誉称号,政委张万华专程来京看望王恒杰。 Nansha garrison party granted the Navy sub Wang Hengjie "Nansha" Guardian of Honor, Political Commissar Zhang Wanhua made a special trip to Beijing to visit Wang Hengjie. 病榻上的王恒杰感动得泣不成声,他说“南沙就是我的归宿,我死了,骨灰也要撒在南沙,作一名真正的'南沙卫士”'。 Wang Hengjie moved on his sick bed sobbing, he said, "Nansha is my destination, I die, ashes should be scattered in the Nansha Islands for a real 'Nansha guards"'. 此情此景,令当时在场跟踪采访的查春明记者终生难忘。 In these circumstances, giving the track the presence of reporters interview Zha Chunming unforgettable.
王恒杰在他生命的最后日子里,一刻也没有停止对南海的考古研究。 Wang Hengjie in the last days of his life, has not stopped the archaeological research of the South China Sea. 1996年5月,他又抱病去海南工作了近一个月,6月2日回京后,即感胸闷气短,6月3日即送医院抢救; 7月1日12时35分,王恒杰教授带着遗憾和对南沙的牵挂走'了人们都说,王恒杰教授是为了国家和民族的复兴而累死的。 In May 1996, he was ill go to Hainan for nearly a month, returned to Beijing on June 2, after feeling chest tightness, shortness of breath which, on June 3 sent to the hospital rescue; at 12:35 on July 1, Professor Wang Hengjie with with regret and take care of the Spratly Islands' people say, Professor Wang Hengjie to the revival of the country and the nation's exhausted. 王恒杰生前未能完成的南沙考古研究等工作,他的夫人——中国社会科学院历史研究所研究员张雪惠接着完成。 Wang Hengjie during his lifetime failed to complete the Nansha archaeological research work, his wife - the history of Chinese Academy of Social Sciences researcher Zhang Xuehui then completed. 按照王恒杰生前的愿望,在有关部门的积极协助下,他的骨灰也分别撒在了南沙的岛礁和大海,实现了他生前的遗愿魂归南沙,成为一名真正的南沙卫士。 According to Wang Hengjie desire during his lifetime, the active assistance of the authorities, his ashes were scattered in the Nansha reefs and sea, to achieve his last wish before his death Soul Nansha Islands, Nansha become a true guardian.

采访后记 Interview Postscript

记者在采访收集王恒杰生前独闯南沙考古事迹素材时, 得到了新华社记者查春明的大力支持, 他为记者提供了当时采访报道王恒杰教授事迹的资料、图片,讲述了他当年跟踪采访的所见所闻和亲身感受,又帮助记者联系采访王恒杰教授的夫人张雪惠等事宜。 Reporters in the interview armed with Nansha archaeological collection Wang Hengjie deeds during his lifetime material, you get the Xinhua News Agency reporters Zha Chunming and De Dali support, he was interviewed for the reporter to provide a report Professor Wang Hengjie stories, with photos, about his interview of the year saw track The smell and feel, but also to help the reporter contacted the wife of Zhang Xuehui interview with Professor Wang Hengjie such matters. 他推荐的一篇香港记者王业隆当时采写的记实报道,使记者对王恒杰的南沙情怀有了更深刻的理解。 He recommended a Hong Kong reporter Wang Yeh-Long was written the documentary reports, the correspondent for Wang Hengjie Nansha feelings deeper understanding. 南海诸岛是中国的领土, 中华儿女为之献出了一切甚至是生命,他们可歌可泣的事迹, 我们每一个中国人都将永世不忘。 South China Sea islands are Chinese territory, sons and daughters all of whom sacrificed their lives or even their heroic deeds, every one of us Chinese people will never forget.

————消息来源:华夏遗产网综合 ---- Source: Chinese Heritage Network General [/color]

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 07:40 #26

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0
Hello everyone ,

I think this is great that we are able to sit down and discuss this on such a forum .

The situation in South China Sea and the tension between China and Viet Nam is getting worse I guess . Although we don't really know what goes on behind the closed doors of our respective government's offices , but as Vietnamese and Chinese who are interested in the matter , we can try to work it out between us on civilized term and see if there are possible solutions , without having to resort to waging a war , which is something peace loving people of the world in the 21st century tends to frown up on .

Since there has been a fair bit of information given already on the matter , I would like to spend some time reading and pondering them before jumping into the discussion .

Have fun , guys and gals .

GHH

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 08:46 #27

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0
Uhmm ...

So far it appears you guys have not mentioned the reason why all of a sudden there seems to be stepped up interest in those tiny clusters of islands in the South China Sea .

It is because of the enormous wealth contained in the estimated 7.5 billion barrels of oil deposited in the region . China wants it , Viet Nam wants it , Philippine wants it , Malaysia wants it and even Brunei is trying to stake a claim .

The question of absolute ownership has not yet been established . America was trying to globalize the matter since it wants some too , obviously . It seems no one really has undisputable evidences of sovereignty , otherwise the matter would have been brought before the United Nations and resolved already . I have a feeling this is going to drag on for a while .

If China has to go to war to claim sovereignty over the islands , it simply means China does not have enough documents to claim it legally otherwise . Even if China is to win , the cost and consequences of such an act will be huge. Not just in terms of life and money , but in terms of damages to the relationship between China and other countries in South East Asia and even with the rest of the world . Admit it or not , the general population out there aren't too enthousiastic about war anymore .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 10:01 #28

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0
I wonder if Liang3a is aware of China's decision at the San Francisco Conference in 1951 where attending countries rejected China’s claims over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. Also at this conference, Viet Nam declared its long-standing and continuous sovereignty over the two archipelagoes at the plenary session, without any protest from all attendant countries. It means that since 1951, the international community recognized Viet Nam’s historical and legal sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. China’s unilateral declaration of sovereignty over the two archipelagoes is invalid under international law.

The Geneva Accords1954, which had China as an official attendant, also recognizes Vietnam’s sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. The Accords asked attending countries to respect independence, sovereignty and national unity and territorial integrity of Vietnam. China agreed and signed to that . Therefore, China’s statement of sovereignty over the two archipelagos in 1958 is invalid under international law.

I think it is because of these reasons that China did not want to globalize the dispute , not willing to make the discussion open to international scrutiny because China knows it can not win the argument .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 14:06 #29

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Ganh wrote:

The question of absolute ownership has not yet been established . America was trying to globalize the matter since it wants some too , obviously . It seems no one really has undisputable evidences of sovereignty , otherwise the matter would have been brought before the United Nations and resolved already . I have a feeling this is going to drag on for a while .

If China has to go to war to claim sovereignty over the islands , it simply means China does not have enough documents to claim it legally otherwise . Even if China is to win , the cost and consequences of such an act will be huge. Not just in terms of life and money , but in terms of damages to the relationship between China and other countries in South East Asia and even with the rest of the world . Admit it or not , the general population out there aren't too enthousiastic about war anymore .
Ganh Hang Hoa 帖子: 3注册: 2011-07-29 7:29


China had long ago established its sovereignty by discovery and inclusion of the archipelagos in its administrative maps in the Tang dynasty and every subsequent dynasties. China's sovereignty cannot be negated by international community. It is nonsense that UN or a group of nations can get together and vote and give a part of Chinese sovereign territories to some other countries. Therefore, such things as Geneva Accord or San Francisco Conference are all invalid. I'm sure China did not at any time renounce its sovereignty. And as long as China did not specifically renounce its sovereignty it will remain the sovereign owner of these islands.

It is easy to understand why foreign countries want to give these islands to Vietnam. It is because China was the target of the West at the end of the WW2 where the West had targeted the USSR and China as their main enemies. So naturally the western nations will do whatever they can to take China's sovereign territories and give them to some other countries. Therefore, these attempts were all invalid being nothing more than acts of hostile nations.

And as I have repeated many times, the cost of going to war against the Philippines and Vietnam will be minimal for China. The reason why it had cost so much for the US in fighting Vietnam was because it was a land war where the American soldiers had to fight close up battles against Vietcongs in the jungle where they can dig tunels to hide in. But in fighting in the S. China Sea, China will be fighting Vietnam on the open waters where the Vietnamese have no place to hide and must fight a high tech war with advanced jet fighters and submarine warfare. This is where China's superior technologies will allow it to wipe out the Vietnamese airforce and navy with minimal loss to China's own military. In fighting the Americans, Vietnam also had indispensable help from USSR and China. Now Vietnam has to pay for every bullet it buys from Russia and China will blockade its ports and land routes from Cambodia and Laos so Vietnam won't even be able to get supplies from the US. Anyway, once war started no ships would want to go to Vietnam for fear of being sunk. And the insurance for ship and cargo will simply be too expensive. So Vietnam cannot sustain a war against China while China can continue to surge ahead in economic development without any serious consequences. It might cost China to replace 10 fighters for Vietnam's 50 fighters. 10 Chinese fighters might cost 1 billion yuan. China's military budget is 600 billion yuan or 1.5% of its 40 trillion plus yuan GDP. So 1/600 of its military budget is nothing for China. Even at 1/60 of its military budget is easy for China to bear. But even $2 billion for Vietnam would be a great burden with its tiny GDP of only $100 billion. So China won't be suffering any economic losses while Vietnam will be bled white.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 14:29 #30

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Ganh wrote:
I think it is because of these reasons that China did not want to globalize the dispute , not willing to make the discussion open to international scrutiny because China knows it can not win the argument .


China already has established its incontestable historical evidence for its sovereignty. It does not need to take it to any international court for adjudication. I can also sense a change in international sentiment. Before there was an automatic condemnation of China. But now many are giving credence to Chinese claims. At least there is no longer that automatic assumption that China is the bully but a grudging admittance that there is at least a possibility that China does have prior sovereignty claim.

In the end, the world is still very much prejudiced against China. And the law is never about justice but about correct decision based on the existing law or precedence. Therefore, there is no need for China to commit suicide by submitting to the mercy of obvious hostile enemies. Anyway, China cannot be compelled to go to the ICJ. And all the stupid bluster by the Philippines about going to the UNCLOs is just shear stupidity because UNCLOS does not adjudicate issues of sovereignty. It simply does not have that power. It only mediates questions about the interpretation of UNCLOS provisions. UNCLOS cannot give sovereign Chinese territories to any countries.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 00:55 #31

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道::
China had long ago established its sovereignty by discovery and inclusion of the archipelagos in its administrative maps in the Tang dynasty and every subsequent dynasties. China's sovereignty cannot be negated by international community. It is nonsense that UN or a group of nations can get together and vote and give a part of Chinese sovereign territories to some other countries. Therefore, such things as Geneva Accord or San Francisco Conference are all invalid. I'm sure China did not at any time renounce its sovereignty. And as long as China did not specifically renounce its sovereignty it will remain the sovereign owner of these islands.

It is easy to understand why foreign countries want to give these islands to Vietnam. It is because China was the target of the West at the end of the WW2 where the West had targeted the USSR and China as their main enemies. So naturally the western nations will do whatever they can to take China's sovereign territories and give them to some other countries. Therefore, these attempts were all invalid being nothing more than acts of hostile nations.

And as I have repeated many times, the cost of going to war against the Philippines and Vietnam will be minimal for China. The reason why it had cost so much for the US in fighting Vietnam was because it was a land war where the American soldiers had to fight close up battles against Vietcongs in the jungle where they can dig tunels to hide in. But in fighting in the S. China Sea, China will be fighting Vietnam on the open waters where the Vietnamese have no place to hide and must fight a high tech war with advanced jet fighters and submarine warfare. This is where China's superior technologies will allow it to wipe out the Vietnamese airforce and navy with minimal loss to China's own military. In fighting the Americans, Vietnam also had indispensable help from USSR and China. Now Vietnam has to pay for every bullet it buys from Russia and China will blockade its ports and land routes from Cambodia and Laos so Vietnam won't even be able to get supplies from the US. Anyway, once war started no ships would want to go to Vietnam for fear of being sunk. And the insurance for ship and cargo will simply be too expensive. So Vietnam cannot sustain a war against China while China can continue to surge ahead in economic development without any serious consequences. It might cost China to replace 10 fighters for Vietnam's 50 fighters. 10 Chinese fighters might cost 1 billion yuan. China's military budget is 600 billion yuan or 1.5% of its 40 trillion plus yuan GDP. So 1/600 of its military budget is nothing for China. Even at 1/60 of its military budget is easy for China to bear. But even $2 billion for Vietnam would be a great burden with its tiny GDP of only $100 billion. So China won't be suffering any economic losses while Vietnam will be bled white.



I disagree with you completely .

First of all , I must say I am Vietnamese but I have lived in Australia for nearly 30 years so I am interested in the matter more on an academic basis not such much as national pride or wanting to defend rights of land or anything . Therefore my point of view is not at all biased .

Also having lived overseas , I khow very well how the Westerners think and operate . They do not think at all like you do . Therefore what you are saying is totally wrong .

You said China has established sovereignty but that is only valid IN China and TO China . Nothing is considered absolutely valid until the international community agrees with it . Its like China saying Mr Liu Xiao Bo is a criminal , but to the international community he is a freedom fighter , a Nobel prize laureate and that China is detaining him wrongly ! Its also like China claiming that the 14th Dalai Llama of Tibet is not the real Dalai Llama , but the Rinpoche that China installed into the position is the right one , the world over and all the leaders of other countries still treated the 14th Dalai Llama as the authentic one . China can protest all it wants but this does not change the view of the world . Hence such, if China mistreats either Mr Liu Xiao Bo or the Dalai Llama , the international community will not sit there and watch but will speak up and will have real actions to stop China .

Now the same is with the issue of absolute sovereignty over the 2 islands . The international community at large believes that they belong to Vietnam , based on certain previous historical events that they themselves were present and bore witness . China now has the job of convincing other countries otherwise . Whether or not the evidences to claim sovereignty that China possesses are adequate to convince the world over beyond doubt remain to be seen .

The fact that China did not want to globalize the issue , did not want to bring this matter to the international community bring severe doubt to the mind . Why having to resort to war if China has undisputable proofs of ownership . This simply defies logic . Anyone with half a brain can see that China has serious issues , at least some major holes in its argument .

You said the cost of war to the China will be small ? That is absolute nonsense . Fighting Vietnam alone is not yet an easy task , let alone US and other countries in the area .

If fighting Vietnam is easy and not costly then China would not have been defeated so many times in the last 4000 years by Vietnamese people . They may not have advanced weaponry but they are fanatic fighters . By nature , Vietnamese people are wayyy more aggressive than Chinese . They are also more cunning and have no bound of philosophical ideation such as the teachings of Confucius . Interestingly their government has been trained by Chinese for the last 80 or so years , so they know pretty well much of Chinese tactics . On top of that , the Vietnamese government has deep roots in Laos and Cambodia . Waging a land war on Vietnam wil see China defeated because of the geography of the country and the terrain bordering onto Laos and Cambodia .

The only aspect that China has strength over Vietnam in a traditional warfare is sea battle . Everybody knows that and that is exactly why US battleships have entered the South China Sea and is holding practice fights with Vietnam naval . China is not as strong as the US when it comes to sea battles . Even Mr Dee Woo , world famous commentator of China has had to admit that should China wages a sea battle with Vietnam , and encountering US battleships on its course , China would have to resort to nuclear weapon to win . If China uses nuclear weapons to win the battle over sovereignty over Spratly and and Paracel Islands , China would place itself on the enemy list of almost the entire world over .

Not to mention other surrounding countries will not sit still . Its not because they favour Vietnam over China , far from it , its because they are , too , afraid of China . Or rather , afraid of China's intention of extending its territories in the South East Asia . What China does to Tibet , the world has seen and will not forget . Your attitude here on this forum , pretty much present this attitude of the Chinese government , ie we declares something belongs to us , we will take it , by force if necessary . From the Chinese point of view , of course this is great ! So just and patriotic , but the others , well, let's say , at least it does sound pretty greedy and unreasonable . Therefore other countries in the South East Asia will not sit still should China really wages a war against Vietnam . Because they are too afraid that , in doing nothing , they open themselves to be the next target .

Why do you think they all agree to invite US in ? And do you really think the US will sit and watch if China attacks Vietnam by force ? This is not just about Vietnam , this is about Chinese threat to the whole region . This is not a war between 2 countries , but it will blow up into a war between China and the US as well as the whole South East Asia , and their allies ! No matter how strong China is , this is not something China wants to take on .

Why do you think the Chinese government agrees to enter discussions ? If it really has the upper hand why would it bother to do that ? You said its because Chinese leaders are too softhearted ? Do you realize that by saying so you are downplaying your own government and your own people , claiming that China is being leaded by people less politically savvy than a youngster on an internet forum ?

Rather it is because China does not have enough convincing evidences of sovereignty and does not want to start a war with Vietnam , that China HAS to agree to discussions .

In the future, should the discussions fail completely , then maybe we see some forms of military actions , not now , not in the near future .

The way I see it , the islands will be divided between the countries staking claim , with Vietnam retaining the main part . Then China and the US will sign treaties with Vietnam over oil and gas projects .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 01:19 #32

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: China already has established its incontestable historical evidence for its sovereignty. It does not need to take it to any international court for adjudication. I can also sense a change in international sentiment. Before there was an automatic condemnation of China. But now many are giving credence to Chinese claims. At least there is no longer that automatic assumption that China is the bully but a grudging admittance that there is at least a possibility that China does have prior sovereignty claim.

In the end, the world is still very much prejudiced against China. And the law is never about justice but about correct decision based on the existing law or precedence. Therefore, there is no need for China to commit suicide by submitting to the mercy of obvious hostile enemies. Anyway, China cannot be compelled to go to the ICJ. And all the stupid bluster by the Philippines about going to the UNCLOs is just shear stupidity because UNCLOS does not adjudicate issues of sovereignty. It simply does not have that power. It only mediates questions about the interpretation of UNCLOS provisions. UNCLOS cannot give sovereign Chinese territories to any countries.



What do you mean incontestable evidence ? You are contradicting yourself . If the evidence is so incontestable why needing to go to war ??

The world is not prejudiced against China for no reason . Why does the world not prejudice against Australia for example ? What the world thinks of China is based on what China does . China declared Tibet belonged to motherland and invaded Tibet by force , killing its people and mistreated the monks and nuns there quite ruthlessly . China has shown over and over again that it has no respect for the international community so then why should the international community offers China any ? Simple laws of give and take . If China finds itself having hostile enemies that is because China created them ! China has to learn to look at self first before blaming anyone else .

I notice that Commnunist govenments have the tendency to do that , blaming every difficulties on " hostile enemies " instead of taking responsibility . Vietnam does the same .

I agree that no one can force China to go to the UNCLOS , but the mere facts that China does NOT want to go through any form of independent mediation is further proof that China knows it will not win the battle by reasons and evidences only . If China really does have incontestable evidence then it should be to China's advantages to go .

You claim that you " sense a change in international sentiment. Before there was an automatic condemnation of China. But now many are giving credence to Chinese claims . " Well in political discussion , there is no such thing as sentiment . There is no room for sentiment . Its all about facts .

Would you be so kind as to provide me with proofs of your claim , please ? From where I sit , I do not see that at all . What I find , including comments from Chinese observers themselves , are that China is being cornered , put on the dissecting table and is getting upset . That is why speculation of war got started , it is because China may be left with no alternative should it really tries to take the island , ie by force .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 07:18 #33

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Ganh wrote:
You said China has established sovereignty but that is only valid IN China and TO China . Nothing is considered absolutely valid until the international community agrees with it . Its like China saying Mr Liu Xiao Bo is a criminal , but to the international community he is a freedom fighter , a Nobel prize laureate and that China is detaining him wrongly !


This is nonsense. You are also being illogical. If the international community is the final and absolute arbiter of right and wrong then there would be no need for the ICJ or World Court. All anybody need to do is call for a vote in the UN or get an opinion poll by the international media or even an opinion poll on the internet. Furthermore, opinion of the international community changes from time to time and is influenced and indeed determined by media hype. And most of all who constitute the "international community?" The international community is not just the cabal consisting of Japan, America and the western countries. These are always prejudiced against China therefore their opinions are worthless. The rest of the world either down care or don't know enough to make a judgement. For example, many think it is the proper thing for China to go to UNCLOS with the Philippines for a ruling on the sovereignty of the Nansha A. But the UNCLOS simply does not have the authority to rule on sovereignty issue. All UNCLOS says by way of dispute settlement is in the following:

UNCLOS
PART XV
SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES
SECTION 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 279
Obligation to settle disputes by peaceful means
States Parties shall settle any dispute between them concerning the interpretation or application of this Convention by peaceful means in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 3, of the Charter of the United Nations and, to this end, shall seek a solution by the means indicated in Article 33, paragraph 1, of the Charter.

www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml

UN Article 2 Para 3:
All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter6.shtml

CHAPTER VI: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES
Article 33, Paragraph 1
The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.

The Security Council shall, when it deems necessary, call upon the parties to settle their dispute by such means.


As is shows above, the only disputes settled by UNCLOS is about the "interpretation and application" of its own provisions and not about issues of sovereignty which is not provided for anywhere in the UNCLOS convention. Therefore, the determination of sovereignty is not in the purview of UNCLOS. The issue of sovereignty is more properly determined by the ICJ. But even the ICJ cannot compel any country to submit to it. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that "international community" can unilaterally determine important issues like sovereignty of a nation. And as I indicated above there is no such thing as the "international community" in terms of a concrete entity that is competent enough to pass judgement on any important issues concerning the fate of any nation. And not the least when the West talk about "international community" it generally means the West itself with maybe a few camp followers. Therefore, your "international community" is really not worth anything. It is just the prejudice of a biased cabal of western nations which is and will be for a long time be hostile to China and the eastern nations including Vietnam. And if it seems they are helping Vietnam it is only because they want to harm China more than they want to help Vietnam.

Furthermore, China also has an "international community" in the SCO and BRICS and other friends and allies whose opinion favor China over Vietnam. Even in San Framcisco Conference, USSR had proposed that the S. China Sea archipelagos belong to China. Therefore, there was obviously a division in the opinions of the "international community." And the future opinions of the "international community" will surely change when China grows even bigger. For instance, once China has surpassed America in terms of GDP size and military strength as seen by such overt signs as the number of aircraft carriers then the opinion of the "international community" will surely change as many nations will get on the side of the stronger China and shy away from the now weaker America and the West.

You might side with America and the West now. But if you were a real Vietnamese and living in Australia then you must have experienced prejudice because you're oriental and looking like a Chinese. I can tell you prejudice in America against Chinese is bad and even worse against the Vietnamese. And that will not change unless and until China is stronger than the West. Which will also benefit the Vietnamese. And finally, the future of Vietnam will be dim if it relies on America because America simply cannot do anything to benefit Vietnam in economic terms. It has levled off economically and will be lucky not to decline and fall. So if you like to see Vietnam rise to the level of earning $20,000 a year or more then you'd better hitch your wagon to China because America will only turn you into something like the Philippines.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 10:46 #34

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Ganh wrote:
The only aspect that China has strength over Vietnam in a traditional warfare is sea battle . Everybody knows that and that is exactly why US battleships have entered the South China Sea and is holding practice fights with Vietnam naval . China is not as strong as the US when it comes to sea battles . Even Mr Dee Woo , world famous commentator of China has had to admit that should China wages a sea battle with Vietnam , and encountering US battleships on its course , China would have to resort to nuclear weapon to win . If China uses nuclear weapons to win the battle over sovereignty over Spratly and and Paracel Islands , China would place itself on the enemy list of almost the entire world over .


The cost of land battle will obviously be higher but it does not mean that China cannot fight a land battle. China did fight a land battle against the Americans in Korea and defeated them. Or fought them to a standstill which is the same thing since it is America's plan to conquer China. Chinese soldiers also dedeafted the Japanese in southern China when the Japanese tried to take Yun Nan not once but three times. Chinese soldiers also defeated the Japanese in Burma to rescue Merill's Marauders who were trapped by them. And of course the Chinese also defeated the Indians without even breakinga sweat. In the past China had fought well to exterminate the Xiongnu in the Han Dynasty. In the Sung Dynasty, Ye Fei was on the point of exterminating the Jin Empire when he was recalled by the Sung Gao Zhong. So it was not the inability of the Chinese soldiers to fight that had ultimately allowed the Mongols to conquer China. In the Ming Dynasty the Chinese had kept the barbarians at bay for hundreds of years but ultimately collapsed due not to foreign conquest but due to internal rebellion and betrayal.

But those are ancient history. The question is can the Chinese fight now? I think they can. Especially in high tech wars. It has been reported in the Pakistan Defense forum that Chinese J-10 routinely locked onto Vietnamese Su-30 with their fire-control radar which means they can shoot them down with the probability of 50% to 90% depending on the distance. Within the no escape zone of Chinese air to air missile such as PL-12 there is virtually no escape. The PL-12 no escape zone is 35 km to 45 km while some say the no escape zone for America's AIM-120 is less than 5 miles. So apparently to that extent Chinese weapons are superior.

You might not have heard of China's recent deployment of DF-21D anti-ship missile and J-20 stealth fighters. Both are either superior to anything America has or just as good. You talk about China encourtering American battleship in the S. China Sea. But with the deployment of DF-21D no American battleships can approach Chinese coast within 2,000 miles. Since the entire S. China Sea is within 2,000 miles of Chinese borders, no American ship of any kind can enter S. China Sea without being sunk. Therefore, there is no longer any need to use nuclear weapons to defeat the US. China has more than enough conventional weapons to defend against the most formidable American weapons. Actually, China doesn't even need to use its DF-21D. China has just as many submarines as America with 60 each. Most of the Chinese subs are very quiet and as good as the best of American subs. So just one or two torpedoes will be enough to sink the biggest American battle ships.

It is obvious that you are ignorant of China's rapid advancement in military technologies. As always there is no lack of capability of the Chinese to fight. China had lost in the past due to the corrupt government. Now China is not fighting again due to the timidity of the Chinese government while the military is very well prepared and able to fight. That reluctance to fight may change when the new leadership team begin in a couple of years. At least I hope so.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 10:55 #35

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0

Ganh wrote:
Not to mention other surrounding countries will not sit still . Its not because they favour Vietnam over China , far from it , its because they are , too , afraid of China . Or rather , afraid of China's intention of extending its territories in the South East Asia . What China does to Tibet , the world has seen and will not forget . Your attitude here on this forum , pretty much present this attitude of the Chinese government , ie we declares something belongs to us , we will take it , by force if necessary . From the Chinese point of view , of course this is great ! So just and patriotic , but the others , well, let's say , at least it does sound pretty greedy and unreasonable . Therefore other countries in the South East Asia will not sit still should China really wages a war against Vietnam . Because they are too afraid that , in doing nothing , they open themselves to be the next target .


This is shear nonsense. China has for thousands of years established sovereignty over S. China Sea so of course it will defend it. Same thing with Tibet and Xinjiang and every part of China's territories. China has never claimed anything south of Nansha A. No country anywhere in the world needs to fear China. China has published its map. Do you see China claiming anything outside of what is has publicly claimed for thousands of years? Obviously not.

So far I have heard of nothing but propaganda from you. Start relying on facts and truth or you will lose your credibility.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 11:23 #36

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
Gahn, don't talk to me about world opinion or anything about San Francisco Conference or Geneva Convention or what the ASEAN countries fear or such nonsense. If you want to convince me that Vietnam has sovereignty over Nansha and other archipelagos, then show me the proof that Vietnam had discovered these islands before the Chinese in the 3rd Century BCE, and that it had established unquestioned sovereignty over them before the 8th Century AD when the Chinese in the Tang Dynasty had incorporated them into the Chinese administrative map and that Vietnam had maintained claim of sovereignty over them ever since like China has done. Or prove to me that China had at any time without being forced voluntarily renounced sovereignty over these islands. If you cannot, and obviously you cannot, then you really have no proof of Vietnam's claim of sovereignty. And everything you keep harping on about world opinion only shows you have no proof at all which is why you resort to making a big fuss about nonsensical diversions to distract China from the fact that you have no proof.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 11:41 #37

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道::
This is nonsense. You are also being illogical. If the international community is the final and absolute arbiter of right and wrong then there would be no need for the ICJ or World Court. All anybody need to do is call for a vote in the UN or get an opinion poll by the international media or even an opinion poll on the internet. Furthermore, opinion of the international community changes from time to time and is influenced and indeed determined by media hype. And most of all who constitute the "international community?" The international community is not just the cabal consisting of Japan, America and the western countries. These are always prejudiced against China therefore their opinions are worthless. The rest of the world either down care or don't know enough to make a judgement. For example, many think it is the proper thing for China to go to UNCLOS with the Philippines for a ruling on the sovereignty of the Nansha A. But the UNCLOS simply does not have the authority to rule on sovereignty issue. All UNCLOS says by way of dispute settlement is in the following:

UNCLOS
PART XV
SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES
SECTION 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 279
Obligation to settle disputes by peaceful means
States Parties shall settle any dispute between them concerning the interpretation or application of this Convention by peaceful means in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 3, of the Charter of the United Nations and, to this end, shall seek a solution by the means indicated in Article 33, paragraph 1, of the Charter.

www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml

UN Article 2 Para 3:
All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter6.shtml

CHAPTER VI: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES
Article 33, Paragraph 1
The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.

The Security Council shall, when it deems necessary, call upon the parties to settle their dispute by such means.


As is shows above, the only disputes settled by UNCLOS is about the "interpretation and application" of its own provisions and not about issues of sovereignty which is not provided for anywhere in the UNCLOS convention. Therefore, the determination of sovereignty is not in the purview of UNCLOS. The issue of sovereignty is more properly determined by the ICJ. But even the ICJ cannot compel any country to submit to it. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that "international community" can unilaterally determine important issues like sovereignty of a nation. And as I indicated above there is no such thing as the "international community" in terms of a concrete entity that is competent enough to pass judgement on any important issues concerning the fate of any nation. And not the least when the West talk about "international community" it generally means the West itself with maybe a few camp followers. Therefore, your "international community" is really not worth anything. It is just the prejudice of a biased cabal of western nations which is and will be for a long time be hostile to China and the eastern nations including Vietnam. And if it seems they are helping Vietnam it is only because they want to harm China more than they want to help Vietnam.

Furthermore, China also has an "international community" in the SCO and BRICS and other friends and allies whose opinion favor China over Vietnam. Even in San Framcisco Conference, USSR had proposed that the S. China Sea archipelagos belong to China. Therefore, there was obviously a division in the opinions of the "international community." And the future opinions of the "international community" will surely change when China grows even bigger. For instance, once China has surpassed America in terms of GDP size and military strength as seen by such overt signs as the number of aircraft carriers then the opinion of the "international community" will surely change as many nations will get on the side of the stronger China and shy away from the now weaker America and the West.

You might side with America and the West now. But if you were a real Vietnamese and living in Australia then you must have experienced prejudice because you're oriental and looking like a Chinese. I can tell you prejudice in America against Chinese is bad and even worse against the Vietnamese. And that will not change unless and until China is stronger than the West. Which will also benefit the Vietnamese. And finally, the future of Vietnam will be dim if it relies on America because America simply cannot do anything to benefit Vietnam in economic terms. It has levled off economically and will be lucky not to decline and fall. So if you like to see Vietnam rise to the level of earning $20,000 a year or more then you'd better hitch your wagon to China because America will only turn you into something like the Philippines.



I am not siding with anyone , as I said I am interested in this matter only on an academic level . I would like to see for myself if the arguments given out by any claiming government appears to be more convincing than the others . So far I can see the logic on each side of the arguments but nothing seems to really stand out . As of present , it leans towards Viet Nam .

China , as you said , is staking its claim on the maps drawn by the Tang's dynasty , but what about all the other maps following those . Did Chinese continually over the years hold an interest in the islands ? It appeared not .

You discount the importance of what the international community supports and offer the arguments that it is due to the changing nature of such community . Well , the same argument can be used against China's claim of sovereignty , because China's interest on the islands also changed with time . The Chinese governments through the years did not always pay much attention to them , even when they were mentioned in important discussions such as at the Geneva or the San Francisco conferences . Now all of a sudden , China becomes so set on owning the islands that it is prepared to go to war and sacrifice the lives of its people over them . Why ? It is because China wants the oil and gas deposited in the region . It can be seen clearly as an act of greediness , not of defending sovereignty .

You may also discount the importance of the UNCLOS , and while it is true that it does not hold absolute power on sovereignty and can not make a finite decision for any country , but none the less , it is an independent body of negotiation that most countries respect . By refusing to go there to discuss the matter with the Philippine , China is displaying to the world an arrogant and uncooperative attitude , which may be why China has so many " hostile enemies " . All of this will be taken into account at any Conference , Meeting , Discussion and especially at any World Court .

Another matter that you may have not considered is the fact that although China has visited these islands from an early age , but they never really inhabited nor defended them . No one really lived there , no blood had been lost to defend the islands . Rather each time the Chinese government send troops over there , it its to claim sovereignty by force .

I must also ask you about the Tang dynasty' s map . If that is to be respected , then what was the northern borders of China like then ? If I recall rightly , Mongolia and other regions far North did not belong to China during those period . Would China then return the land to the Mongolian people ? Tibet was not part of that map either , would China then return the land to the 14th Dalai Llama and his people ?

You can not just use one map for one claim of land and then another map for another claim . That is childish .

Maybe now you can see part of the many reasons why Chinese government did not want to bring these so called absolute evidence to a global Conference . If the Tang's map is to be observed, China may gain Spratly and Paracel but will stand to potentially lose a lot more . Your government can not be less savvy than you are . If they dont want to do something , they must have pretty good reason for not doing it , and I am sure it is not because they are being softhearted .

On a side note , since you mention prejudice . Do you really detest the Western world because you think they hold prejudice against Asian people ? Have you ever lived overseas in a Western country ?

Only fearful people prejudice against others . Educated , confident people dont . I associate mainly with the intellects so truly I have not experienced any prejudice at all . I think if I do come across some who would treat me differently simply because I have yellow skin , slanted eyes and black hair , I will just smile at them and feel pity for them , rather than being upset or hurt .

The world is really coming much closer .

Now this is the weekend here and I am going to spend some time going out with my family . I will write more later .

Hope you have a good weekend too and I am still waiting for your proofs that other countries have now regarded China's claim as more valid , than says , several months ago .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 11:53 #38

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: Gahn, don't talk to me about world opinion or anything about San Francisco Conference or Geneva Convention or what the ASEAN countries fear or such nonsense. If you want to convince me that Vietnam has sovereignty over Nansha and other archipelagos, then show me the proof that Vietnam had discovered these islands before the Chinese in the 3rd Century BCE, and that it had established unquestioned sovereignty over them before the 8th Century AD when the Chinese in the Tang Dynasty had incorporated them into the Chinese administrative map and that Vietnam had maintained claim of sovereignty over them ever since like China has done. Or prove to me that China had at any time without being forced voluntarily renounced sovereignty over these islands. If you cannot, and obviously you cannot, then you really have no proof of Vietnam's claim of sovereignty. And everything you keep harping on about world opinion only shows you have no proof at all which is why you resort to making a big fuss about nonsensical diversions to distract China from the fact that you have no proof.


Just as I posted the last post I read this paragraph of yours so I am writing a bit more in reply .

I am not defending anything nor I am trying to prove anything to you . Because really our opinions are valid only to ourselves . Its not like we can make a real decision or that what we think really matters on a national level .

This is more a discussion between interested people on various aspects of the matter . Its not a matter of national pride or life and death or anything like that should either win or lose the argument . Cool off Liang3a ! What aspect can be considered valid and what is to be discarded as " nonsense " is up for discussion . Neither of us hold the power to determine this . Have an open mind and prove that Chinese are peace loving and reasonable people .

Your choice of words is showing that you are getting upset ! If you are on the winning side why getting upset ? People only get upset when they run out of valid arguments .

When I come back from being out , I am going to do a search on the map drawn by the Tangs dynasty and see what areas of land is considered to belong to China , and see if subsequent maps showed any changes . Have you seen those ?

Cheers .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-31 06:03 #39

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
Ganh, I have lived most of my life outside of China. I know what prejudice is from first hand experience. All your questions are either asked and answered or not worth answering. I can respect logic and facts and I can easily see BS.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-31 06:15 #40

  • Ganh Hang Hoa
  • Ganh Hang Hoa的头像
  • 离线
  • 新手上路
  • 新手上路
  • 帖子: 8
  • 感谢您收到 0

Liang3a 写道:: Ganh, I have lived most of my life outside of China. I know what prejudice is from first hand experience. All your questions are either asked and answered or not worth answering. I can respect logic and facts and I can easily see BS.


Hi Liang3a , I have found some Chinese documents stating that the far South border of China in the South China Sea was only to latitude 18th and did not include Paracel and Spratly .

It seems Chinese documents and some maps through the years were inconsistent and several of them clearly did not include those 2 islands as part of China .

I will see how I can upload them here for you to see .

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-31 10:14 #41

  • Liang3a
  • Liang3a的头像
  • 离线
  • 版主
  • 版主
  • 帖子: 298
  • 感谢您收到 0
Ganh, you had asked about why China is reluctant to go to the ICJ. Below is what I posted to another thread. This is why I think China should not go to the ICJ.

I just want to add a comment on why China should never go to the World Court to argue its case. First there is no need. The World Court cannot compel China to submit to it. Therefore, it is foolish for China to submit to something it does not need to submit to. The second is the opinions of judges are never unanimous. For example, there are 9 Supreme Court justices in the US. Their decisions are never unanimous. It always depends on their personal biases even though they are supposed to be objective and apply the law without personal prejudices. This is why it is so important for the American president to select Supreme Court justices carefully so as to load the deck so to speak by appointing judges who are of the same political philosophy as himself or his party and increase the chances that his policies or the policies of his party will be protected in the future. This proves that the decision of any particular group of judges will differ from the decision of any other particular group of judges. In other words it is a dice game for China to submit to the World Court and the whim of a particular group of judges who happen to be sitting in judgement of the case. One group of judges may give sovereignty to China. Another group of judges may give the sovereignty to other countries or a combination thereof. Going to court is nothing more than a crapshoot and China should never be tricked into going there. All China needs to do is to publicize its historical proofs that confirm its legal rights to let the world that it indeed has the strongest claim. That is all it needs to do other than to use its military force to reclaim its lost sovereign territories.

Please 登录注册一个帐号 to join the conversation.

  • 页:
  • 1
管理者: Liang3a
创建页面时间:0.436秒
核心: Kunena 论坛