现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-17 18:26 #1
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 09:55 #3
All these reasons are valid. I have also posted on this question saying this is the best time for China to go to war.
I have always said that China is unwise to accumulate so much forex reserve. It squanders too much energy and resources while neglecting to develop its own technologies and its internal economy through the urbanization of the farmers or rural residents. Now China is facing either a quick loss of its dollars through default or a slow loss through the devaluation of its dollar holding relative to the yuan. In any event China must raise the value of its yuan to the purchasing power parity value in order to maintain a proper balance in its foreign trade. Excessively low value of the yuan will simply give away its exports as practically free gifts.
Also, with this background it is obvious that America cannot afford to fight a war with China. Therefore, China should use this opportunity to regain its sovereign territories from the 4 small thugs in S. E. Asia. America is pretending to be tough and able to fight another war. But America is in S. China Sea only because CPC leaders have stupidly assured them that China will not shoot first. So there is no risk for America to strut around in S. China Sea pretending to be tough. But the moment shooting starts America will quickly find an excuse and scoot back to the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 10:00 #4
Unfortunately, Chinese government has foolishly sold out China again by signing a new declaration for "cooperation" with all the other invading countries. Now the Filipino officials are openly touring the S. China Sea and threatening to take the case to the UN and generally treating China like a thief. And the stupid Chinese government just apologize and promise more cooperation. As I keep saying there can be no satisfactory solution except by military force. Either China give up or it goes to war. And if China gave up, then we're back to 100 years ago and begin the long slide downward again. I fear for China. Our motherland is not being protected.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 13:21 #5
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 15:32 #6
People like evensteven bore me to tears. These are either ignorant or some kind of propagandist out to subvert Chinese minds.
Extreme nationalism? Sinocentrist? Expansion at the expense of the weaker? How did you get all these from my post which only said China should use force to defend its sovereign territories? If you think advocating force in defense of one's country is a conclusive symptom for extrerme nationalism, ethnocentrism, inevitable aggressive expansion at the expense of the weaker, then everybody in the world is quilty. Which patriotic people do you know who would not use force in the defense of his native land? Even the Vietnamese are calling for defending their land against the Chinese. This is such low nonsense that it really does not worth my time to answer.
Ultimately the question is who is the sovereign owners of S. China Sea. And China is the true sovereign owner because it had established its sovereignty since the time of the Tang Dynasty when the Vietnamese themselves have admitted that they did not even discover these islands until the 17th Century. What more needs be said? The Vietnamese themselves have proven China's case.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-21 20:55 #7
I don't want to see war being waged, blood being shed, hatred and racism flourish, economic activities hindered, ordinary people's lives ruined over some tiny islands 1,000 km away from the mainland. War is NEVER okay, and your attitude is not okay either.
As long as peace is kept, I don't mind if the islands belong to Vietnam or China. What peace could there be if one party is determined to go to war over an issue in dispute?
And by in dispute, I mean it is being disputed. It is not absolute whether Vietnam or China is the true owner of the islands. I can show you proofs of Vietnamese sovereignty used by the Vietnamese; and trust me, they sound just as convincing as the Chinese argument. It's all a matter of how prejudiced you are, or which side you are biased to/against. You and I, we are biased. As such, you can't just use force in favor of something you believe is right. You have to prove it, with evidences, facts, powerful arguments, to an adjudicator. Which apparently is something the Chinese and Vietnamese government never did.
Now, as the matter of those islands' sovereignty is being disputed, diplomatic talks or peaceful resolutions are always the ultimate choice. What good does it do if any party has that attitude of yours-- starting war over something you believe you are right?
You can't just take a gun into the piece of unfenced garden both you and your neighbor claim and shoot him as soon as he steps in. That is you being blindly aggressive and unnecessarily violent. You personally believe that the piece of garden belongs to you, but it might just belong to the neighbor. Who knows, let's take it to court.
I called you Sinocentrist because you showed a strong and unreasonable desire for China to be stronger and bigger-- at the expense of the small neighbors. China already engulfs a massive chunk of land acquired through territorial expansion over time. Why, I mean why, are you so determined-- as much as to use force-- to gain a tiny collection of islands 1,000km away from your mainland?
Your statement does not apply in this situation. The Spratly islands have never been inhabited by Han people, and as such, is not your native land. In fact, the Vietnamese had been extracting resources from those islands during the Nguyen Dynasty-- the 19th century, when no Chinese men were around, except for some passing by fishing boats. It is thus more appropriate to say that the Vietnamese were the first ones to inhabit, to actually live and use those islands. The Vietnamese are the natives. You discovered the islands, but you decided not to live there. The French and Dutch discovered Australia first, but it was the British who put Australia under its governance. Australia belonged to Britain, not France or the Netherlands.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 07:11 #8
Just so we know where you're coming from, what race or natinality are you? Are you a Chinese or a Vietnamese? Or some other? Are you even an Asian?
Nobody in his right mind would want to see war or hatred or racism or any of the other bad things you mentioned. But as the well known saying goes, "There is a season for all things under the heaven. There is a time to be born and a time to die; there is a time to love and a time to hate; there is a time for peace and a time for war." In its proper season even war is not only permissible but necessary. Only fools and cowards will refuse to fight in the defense of their motherland.
As the well know Chinese military strategist 司马穰苴 had written it is necessary to fight in the defense of the state against foreign aggression. I give belowpart the first chapter of 司马穰苴兵法:
As you can see, even though he based the administration of the state on benevolence yet he advocated using force to maintain justice. Therefore it is foolish to say "war is never ok." War is necessary to maintain sovereignty and to protect the security of a nation. Anybody who say war is never ok is simply too foolish to argue with.
I've seen propaganda like this almost everywhere. Are you guys trained from the same propaganda school? You're always using the same propaganda such as "extreme nationalism", "sinocentrism", "expansionism", "war is evil", "motherland is not worth defending", etc. In other words you guys just want Chinese people to just sit back and let foreign invaders to invade China like it did in the last 200 years.
Specifically, the defense of the motherland does not mean it should be defended based on the value of the land or how far away it is. All land must be defended or else China will be whittled away bit by bit until it is all gone. S. China Sea may be 1,000 km away from mainland China but China is 5,000 km from north to south. So it is not all that far away. Furthermore, Hanoi is 200 miles farther away from Nansha A. than Hainan. Therefore, you should be telling the Vietnamese to stop invading Chinese territories because they are far away. In the end, the defense of the motherland is not based on its distance or value but on the fundamental principle of national integrity and the practical need to discourage aggressors from further aggressions.
I'm sure you don't care who owns the islands. Why should you care? You're not even a Chinese. You're happinest if the Chinese lost the islands. Furthermore, peace is not the goal here. Territorial sovereignty is the goal here. And territorial sovereignty cannot be sacrificed for peace.
And China is the clear sovereign owner of these islands. China had establsihed sovereignty over these island since the time of Tang Dynasty. The Vietnamese claim they "discovered" it in the 17th Century. Since the Chinese already established sovereignty over these islands in the 7th Century, how could the Vietnamese have discovered it 1,000 years later? That is nonsense! Also the Vietnamese claim it succeeded to the islands through succession from France. But France could not have legally established sovereignty over these islands because China had objected. Vietnam could not have succeeded to these islands from France anymore than it could have succeeded them from Japan! The last argument Vietnam is using is that they have established "effective occupation and control." This is also nonsense because as long as China maintain its claim of sovereignty nobody can legally occupy them. The Japanese occupied and controlled these islands for decades. But in the end, China regained sovereignty over them by defeating the Japanese. If necessary China can go to war and blow the Vietnamese out of China's sovereign territories and then there won't be any more claims of Vietnamese occupation and control.
China has proven its claim of sovereignty by showing an unbroken chain of sovereignty from the time of Tang Dynasty down to the current time. In the last century China was attacked and weakened and unable to effectively defend its sovereign territories. Now it has recovered its strength and will take back its rightful sovereign territories. I'm not biased. I cannot argue against truth and facts. Furtunately, truth and facts are on the side of China in this issue. It is absolute that these islands belong to China!!!!!
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 07:31 #9
Actually, many of these islands had been inhabited by Chinese since the very beginning of its discovery in the 3rd Century BC. Chinese had established sovereignty over these islands since the Tang Dynasty. Obviously not all the islands had been inhabited by Chinese. But where is it written that China must occupy every square inch of its land? Vast stretches of Australia still has not been explored let alone inhabited. Vast stretches of Brazil Amazon forest has never been explored let alone inhabited. Vast stretches of Alaska has never been explored let alone inhabited by Americans. So human habitation is not a reason for abandonment of sovereignty. If Vietnamese had sneaked into Chinese territories then they are invaders just as illegal Mexicans who sneak into America are still illegal no matter how long they lived in America. Once China had established sovereignty over the S. China Sea and exert its sovereignty over it, then nobody else can sneak into it and claim it. Furthermore, it is because the Chinese have not gone to war to blow these illegals out of Chinese territories long before that it has gotten into this current situation of dispute. So it is time for China to take decisive action to take care of the problem once and for all. Blow these Vietnamese out of China's sovereign territories. And while China is at it, blow away the Filipinos and Malays and Brunei too.
And lastly, I'm a Chinese and proud of it. If you want to call it sinocentrism then so be it. Your opinion is not important at all.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 07:37 #10
evensteven claimed that the Chinese had never inhabited Nansha A. I give below an article to regute him. The article also give other supporting evidence for China's sovereignty.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 10:26 #11
I am full blooded Vietnamese. I have a Vietnamese passport.
Just take a look the sea territory China is claiming theirs. My common sense tells me the red line is unreasonably expansive and doesn't really represent Chinese "motherland". You're just greedily trying to seize as much resources and territory from other countries as possible. Is that right?
You poor little thing, you're acting like China has been the bully victim for ages. Wrong! YOU are the bully who arrogantly call yourself "the middle kingdom". YOU are the one who devised this ridiculous chart:
This is the 21st century my friend. The Westerners are not going to invade you, and neither is Japan going to. The world aims for peaceful development for the common goods of humanity. It is you, the ugly giant called China, that is still trying to enlarge itself and engulf the smaller neighbors.
No, it is only absolute and set in stone in your bigoted mind. Reality doesn't let anything absolute. The Chinese fishermen, in the journey through the South China sea, they accidentally saw some islands. The presence of some fishermen doesn't give the state the right to claim sovereignty. It is when a state, for the first time documented, put the territory under official use--as the Vietnamese did under the Nguyen Dynasty-- that sovereignty can be officially claimed.
Christopher Columbus discovered America by accident. Does that automatically grant Spain the right of sovereignty to North America? No it doesn't, and neither does China with the Spratly and Paracel islands. Your citizens discovered them; your government couldn't be bothered to claim them. Our government put them under official use for over a century, you never protested for once. It was only until recently did you start to realize the resource-rich potentials and strategic important of those islands that you started to claim yours.
Let me remind you, that while Vietnamese sovereignty over the Paracel & Spratly islands has been confirmed by various countries, China's claim is purely self-claim. A few occasions that China protested were because China believed the islands belong to the Hainan province. But guess what, China was the only one who believed they own those islands.
In the 1951 San Francisco peace treaty, Japan agreed to renounce all right, title and claim to the Spratly Islands and to the Paracel Islands. Bao Dai, the then king of the Nguyen dynasty in Vietnam, claimed Vietnamese sovereignty to those islands. His claim met no opposition from any country, not even China. Then the Geneva accords in 1954 once again confirmed Vietnamese sovereignty. Who observed and testified to Chinese sovereignty? China.
The 1887 border agreement between Tonkin and China didn't mention any island in the South China sea. It was to draw the borderline between North Vietnam and South China. China did protest, but the argument was about borders in the Guangdong area, not about the Paracel or Spratly Islands. Get your facts straight. Then when France occupied the Paracel islands in 1938, China once again protested. However, the protest was only because China self-claimed sovereignty over the islands. This protest doesn't say anything and doesn't mean anything.
The bottom line is, Vietnamese sovereignty over the Paracel & Spratly islands has been testified to according to international conventions. Vietnam has also established official use over those islands for over a century, during the Nguyen Dynasty in the 18th century.
Let's look at China's claim. China claimed sovereignty based on some passing-by Chinese fishermen who accidentally became the first ones to discover those islands. This in an unsubstantial and weak claim. To put things into perspective, Christopher Columbus was the first person to discover America, but the actual right of sovereignty belongs to whoever officially claim their use of the land first. Britain came and claimed the United States; France came and claimed parts of Canada; Portugal came and claimed Brazil. Spain, despite being the first one to discover North America, ended up with South America. Similarly in this case, even though the Chinese discovered the Paracel & Spratly islands first, it was the Vietnamese government during the Nguyen Dynasty that officially claimed them. Therefore, according to international laws of sovereignty--which is similarly being observed in America-- the islands officially belong to Vietnam. 'Nuff said?
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 13:00 #12
No surprise you're a Vietnamese. Only you know if you're full blooded or not.
Your common sense is not worth anything. Sovereignty depends on historical proofs not some biased people's common sense. China had established its territorial waters thousands of years ago. Obviously it is big and extensive. But so is China big and extensive. Are you going to argue that it is against your commons sense that China is so big? That is nonsense!
China is not seizing any territories from any other countries. How can China seize its own territories? Can Vietnam seize Hue? Or Hanoi? S. China Sea archipelagos as defined by its ancient maps are Chinese sovereign territories. Therefore China is only protecting its own sovereign territories against invaders such as Vietnam and the Philippines. You are the invaders. China is the defender. If you start talking about how big China is or how far Nansha A. is from China then you are not addressing the problem and providing proofs of your sovereignty claim but only blowing smoke. And since you are only blowing smoke it means you have no valid claim of sovereignty and have no reason to be in China's sovereign territories. So pack up and get out of China's sovereign territories or be evicted by China's military. Vietnam is the greedy one for invading Chinese sovereign territories and are arrogant enough to think they can get away with it. You think you can scare China with America? America is on the way down while China is on the way up. America needs China's cheap exports while China does not need America's increasingly worthless dollars. China's missiles can sink every American naval ships including aircraft carriers anywhere in S. China Sea. So don't be so arrogant and think America can protect you. American soldiers will just give your women a lot of AIDS and nothing more.
Every square inch of China's sovereign territories is the soil of the Chinese motherland no matter how far or how near they are, or how rich or poor in resources they are. They are equally dear and important to all Chinese people and will be equally protected for the benefit of all future generations of Chinese people.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 13:13 #13
No need to foam at the mouth. And you are not my friend.
The Westerners and Japan had invaded China so any rational man will be wary of the snakes that had bitten him. If China is strong and willing to use force to defend itself then it will be safe whatever the Westerners and Japan will or will not do. It is our wisdom to rely on our own unassailability than on the uncertain goodwill of former invaders. Furthermore, I seem to have heard of a couple of wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Obviously, the world is not as safe as you would like people to believe. China is all for peaceful development for the common good of humankind. And China has not attacked anyone in the last couple of hundred years. And China is obviously benefitting the world much more than Vietnam because without Chinese economy and Chinese money the world would have collapsed already. So be careful what you say.
China is indeed a giant. But China is not trying to enlarge itself. We've got all we need. But we will protect what is ours. It is piddling little countries like Vietnam that is greedy and insatiable and actually think it can rob the Chinese. Time for you to learn a lesson not to be soon forgotten.
And even though you pretend to be a Vietnamese, you could very well be some other kind of people trying to cause trouble between China and Vietnam. Also you may not represent the true sentiment of the Vietnamese people. For all anybody knows most of the Vietnamese people may be peace loving and are very much against the unconscienable invasion of obviously Chinese sovereign territories. The Vietnamese people should know that they can never win against China. They should know that their best future lies in cooperating with China for mutual benefits. In the end the benefit will be far more than all the money they can get out of the oil in the whole S. China Sea.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 14:20 #14
I had already given you references to the fact that China in Tang Dynasty incorporated the S. China Sea islands in its administrative map and officially claimed the S. China Sea archipelagos as its sovereign territories. After that it does not matter what the Vietnamese did. They can claim these islands till they're blue in the face and still they cannot changed the sovereignty of these islands. They are Chinese territories. And that is that.
Refer to my response above. China did incorporate S. China Sea into its adminstrative map in the Tang Dynasty. It was obviously a mistake for China to allow the Vietnamese to enter the Chinese islands out of the goodness of its heart. It is the same mistake the Chinese government is making now again of trying to maintain peace and harmony and not stricting enforcing the ban of foreign invaders. Therefore, China should learn the lesson and this time blow the Vietnamese and all other invaders out of China's sovereign territories.
And it is the Vietnamese who are the ones who is taking an interest in S. China Sea only after oil was discovered. China had established sovereignty over these islands immediately after WW2 when they was no indication of oil. In any event it does not matter. China established its sovereignty in the Tang Dynasty and that is all China needs.
This is laughable. Sovereignty is not decided by a vote of the international community. It is established by historical evidence. The fact that you are again not providing relevant proofs of sovereignty but are just blowing smoke obviously mean you have no proofs. All the world can say Vietnam owns these islands would not change the truth that China is the rightful sovereign owners because China has the historical evidence and that is all it needs. Furthermore, just for kicks, where is your proof that "various countries" have "confirmed" Vietnam's has the sovereignty?
China has always protested whenever other countries tried to claim sovereignty. I have already given reference to that above.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-22 18:41 #15
Of course the CONVENTION CONCERNING THE DELIMITATION OF THE BORDER BETWEEN CHINA AND TONKIN
(Signed at Beijing, June 26, 1887) was about the border between China and northern Vietnam or Tonkin at that time. Since it was about the land border between China and Tonkin it would not have mentioned about the sea boundary between the two areas. However, it did mention that
Longitude 105d 43m east of Paris corresponds to 108d 03m east of London. If you follow this line south it would put Xisha A. and Nansha A. to the east of that line. So if all the "isles" to the east of that line belonged to China then obviously Xisha A. and Nansha A. all belong to China. This treaty specifically use the wrods "the isles which are to the east of the meridian of 105d 43m longitude east of Paris" belong to China. It is perfectly logical to include Xisha A. and Nansha A. in these "isles." Therefore, this is a very good historical document to prove that these archipelagos actually belong to China. Thank you, boy, for pointing this out.
Of course, as I said before, the fact that China had incorporated S. China Sea into its administrative map in the Tang Dynasty is ipso facto sufficient to establish China's sovereignty over S. China Sea. The 1887 treaty is just another nail in Vietnam's coffin to claim sovereignty over Nansha A.
China protested in 1938 means China had exerted sovereignty over these islands. And that is all that matters. China did not abandon S. China Sea archipelagos. Therefore, Vietnam cannot "discover" them and certainly may not claim them as sovereign territories. The protest means everything in the eye of the law. It is only your own ignorance that you foolishly try to minimize it. Or maybe you do know its importance which is why you try to trick the Chinese and other peoples into believing it is not crucial which it really is.
You lose boy.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-23 17:31 #16
You are showing total ignorance and full of errors that mark you either as an ignoramus or a deceitful sneak. Spain controlled almost half of N. America until it lost Mexico to the independence of the Mexican natives. California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico were all a part of Mexico. Subsequently, Mexico lost its possessoins to the north to America because of the Mexican-American War of 1846. Therefore, your nonsese about Spain ended up with S. America because "use of the land" is simply idiotic and not worth wasting time refuting.
In the end, the land first belongs to those who established sovereignty over it first and continued to assert sovereignty over it. Invaders may occupy other countries' land illegally for a time. But the sovereign country has the right to drive out the invaders and recover its sovereign territories. This is why China had driven out the Japanese even though they invaded China for decades. And this is why China has the sovereign right to drive out Vietnam from its sovereign territories now. So either leave or be driven out. As the Chinese saying goes, 不喝敬酒喝罚酒。
Vietnam does not have any valid reasons to claim S. China Sea archipelagos which is why this evensteven is blowing smoke and being facetious. This also reflects the attitude of the Vietnamese government and shows it is impossible for China to reason with these people. Their attitude is, we're not going to talk seriously with you since we don't have any valid claim. Therefore, we're just going to blow smoke and poke fun at you. If you're powerful then come and drive us out. Otherwise, we're here to stay and all the oil is our. Given this attitude of the Vietnamese, it is obvious the Chinese government cannot continue to drag this matter out. Vietnam's friendship is neither desirable nor necessary to China's economic development or national security. Slap it down hard now. And deal with it as time goes on. China had always been able to deal with Vietnam through its long history. No problem there.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-27 03:23 #17
Dear Chinese fellows,
First, I just want to ask you one question. What benefit do you get form those island? Is it the money, the resource and everything else? If your government is good enough to take care of you fellows, there wouldn't be so much hunger and suffer in your country for now. If it happened that China's government win over the island, what would they do with the benefit they get? They would feed your poor people or they would share among themself to buy thema luxury life? Thus, what if war happend? who are the one that though their life away in the sea so at the end those, who did nothing get the benefit? You chinese fellow, please think twice before you suport any kind of war.
Second, I would like to point out one thing to you fellows that you have a point to say that U.S. will struggle to fight a war with China in South China sea. It is true that they have to deal with so many problems for themself, but it is also a fact that South China Sea is one of their most concerning situation. Although it is hard for them to get in to a war, they would still find their way to solve the situation. Beside that, there is not only U.S. concerning about South China Sea, but other countries also concerning about the situation like Russia, Japanese, South Korean, and the European countries too. Those countries do not favor any country in Southeast Asia, so they wouldn't want any single country in Southeast Asia to control a large amount of water like what Chinese's government have claimed. If the situation get worse, those countries would take action for their own nation's benefits. Anyway, if the war broke out, if it is not the U.S. there will be other countries take side in the war. For the current time, the China's government seem like alone in the situation without support of the world nations.
My Chinese fellows, again, please think twice before you support any war!
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-27 03:43 #18
Dear a fellow Chinese,
I am totaly agree with your first line that the land first belongs to those who established sovereignty over it first and continued to assert sovereignty over it. So how about we find evidents for the sovereignty of China and Vietnam to see who is the owner of those island? I would be more than happy to do the research with you on this subjects so we can both understand more about this and I hope we can get to a point where we can agree with each other.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-27 09:55 #19
I give below an article to provide you with some evidence of China's claim to sovereignty over the various archipelagos in the S. China Sea.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-28 01:05 #20
Dear my Chinese fellow,
I would like to call you Liang3a if you agree. To start with, I would like to thank you for provided me the information that you have. I enjoyed reading it and I understand the claim that China's government made over the island. But the information on your article lack of accuracy for the information in the article didn't have any suportive documents, article or historical record with it. Therefor, it have no value for discussing at this moment. By looking at the way you use English, I would say you should be in a professional class for writing English so well. So I think you should know the profesional way to support the claim of the article you post to me.
By that, I would not reject the claim or make any judgement on the article at the moment. The things that I wish you could provide me are the historical evidents for point "A" which claim that the the island belonged to China since 2000 years ago. It would be a historical record for the time the events happend which was confirmed by Scientists for the reality of the records (the age of the paper, the antiquities value of the documents etc...). It would be more effective to claim point "A" in the article.
We will talk about point "A" later after you provide me with those evidents, then we can dicussing it together again. I hope you and me will have a good dicussion on that point. For now, I will move on to talk about point "B" of the article you provide. For this point, the article claim that the chinese people have activities ont he island and government exercised jurisdiction over the the island from the Tang and Song Dynasties. There would be a confusion or missunderstanding at this point. Because at these time Vietnam was invaded by China and be a part of China. So the people who exercised Jurisdiction on these islands could be Vietnamese people under China's government. Under those time, the whole Vietnam territory considered the land of China. To use this point which I refereed to point "B" in the article would not proved that China have exercised jurisdictin over these islands. It was too long for this post already, and I am also out of time, so I will continue with point "C" next time.
I have been a pleasure to talk to you about this, Liang3a! I hope you would show me more of the knowlege I haven't have chance to know. Thank youo!
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-28 10:46 #21
You're asking me for the documents that prove China's sovereignty over the S. China Sea islands. Obviously these documents would be in various museums or in the collection of wealthy collectors. I'm not an archaeologist so I don't know of professional tests to authenticate these documents with carbon dating, etc. However, there are many references to these documents all through China's history. And that is good enough for me. These constitute a preponderance of circumstantial evidence which as you know is enough even in a court of law. If you're particularly interested in finding scientific proofs of the particular physical documents, then I'd suggest you hire a lawyer to do a professional search or approach the Chinese government to allow your experts to examine them for authentication. I'm sure you will at the end of the day be satisfied of their authenticity. I'm the wrong person to ask to provide actual proofs of their authenticity. There are also maps here at this forum. You can go look at the other threads for other references and maps of various times and dynasties. But they're mostly in Chinese.
Below is a link that talk about the various books that contain references to the S. China Sea and countries around it such as Cambodia. The document is in Chinese.
http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A%E5 ... E3%80%8B#1
There are many other physical evidence of the presence of the Chinese in these islands since the time of Han Dynasty. Vietnam was a part of China during the Han Dynasty when many Chinese prisoners were exiled to Vietnam. Below I give a link to the findings of a Chinese archaeologist by the name of Wang Heng Jie in the Nansha A. or Spratly A. which includes coins and ceremic artifacts through almost every Chinese dynasty from Han Dynasty. It is in Chinese.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-28 11:18 #22
http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/co ... 4.full.pdf
Above is another link in English that offer historical proofs of China's sovereignty over S. China Sea archipelagos. Anybody interested can read it and go to the links referenced by the article for more proofs.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 01:08 #23
Thank you my dear friend! I am very appreciate for the resources that you provide me and the time, the hard work that you took to provided me with those informations. By that, I could learn more about your country's history. In return for your kindness, I will carefully read and analyze your resources and share with you my point of views and my limited understanding about the subject. It will take a little more time for me to reply to you. I will read them with a great appreciation of your work.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 06:38 #24
If you can't read Chinese and you would like to read the article of which I posted some quotes in Chinese, you can use the following to search the Google and then use the translation feature to translate it into English. It works for me. I hope you have the Google translation feature also. The translation isn't too good but you'll get a general idea.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 06:44 #25
On second thought, I think I'll just post the entire translated article about Wang Hengjie's trip to the Nansha A. I hope the forum monitor won't mind:
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 07:40 #26
Hello everyone ,
I think this is great that we are able to sit down and discuss this on such a forum .
The situation in South China Sea and the tension between China and Viet Nam is getting worse I guess . Although we don't really know what goes on behind the closed doors of our respective government's offices , but as Vietnamese and Chinese who are interested in the matter , we can try to work it out between us on civilized term and see if there are possible solutions , without having to resort to waging a war , which is something peace loving people of the world in the 21st century tends to frown up on .
Since there has been a fair bit of information given already on the matter , I would like to spend some time reading and pondering them before jumping into the discussion .
Have fun , guys and gals .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 08:46 #27
So far it appears you guys have not mentioned the reason why all of a sudden there seems to be stepped up interest in those tiny clusters of islands in the South China Sea .
It is because of the enormous wealth contained in the estimated 7.5 billion barrels of oil deposited in the region . China wants it , Viet Nam wants it , Philippine wants it , Malaysia wants it and even Brunei is trying to stake a claim .
The question of absolute ownership has not yet been established . America was trying to globalize the matter since it wants some too , obviously . It seems no one really has undisputable evidences of sovereignty , otherwise the matter would have been brought before the United Nations and resolved already . I have a feeling this is going to drag on for a while .
If China has to go to war to claim sovereignty over the islands , it simply means China does not have enough documents to claim it legally otherwise . Even if China is to win , the cost and consequences of such an act will be huge. Not just in terms of life and money , but in terms of damages to the relationship between China and other countries in South East Asia and even with the rest of the world . Admit it or not , the general population out there aren't too enthousiastic about war anymore .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 10:01 #28
I wonder if Liang3a is aware of China's decision at the San Francisco Conference in 1951 where attending countries rejected China’s claims over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. Also at this conference, Viet Nam declared its long-standing and continuous sovereignty over the two archipelagoes at the plenary session, without any protest from all attendant countries. It means that since 1951, the international community recognized Viet Nam’s historical and legal sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. China’s unilateral declaration of sovereignty over the two archipelagoes is invalid under international law.
The Geneva Accords1954, which had China as an official attendant, also recognizes Vietnam’s sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. The Accords asked attending countries to respect independence, sovereignty and national unity and territorial integrity of Vietnam. China agreed and signed to that . Therefore, China’s statement of sovereignty over the two archipelagos in 1958 is invalid under international law.
I think it is because of these reasons that China did not want to globalize the dispute , not willing to make the discussion open to international scrutiny because China knows it can not win the argument .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 14:06 #29
China had long ago established its sovereignty by discovery and inclusion of the archipelagos in its administrative maps in the Tang dynasty and every subsequent dynasties. China's sovereignty cannot be negated by international community. It is nonsense that UN or a group of nations can get together and vote and give a part of Chinese sovereign territories to some other countries. Therefore, such things as Geneva Accord or San Francisco Conference are all invalid. I'm sure China did not at any time renounce its sovereignty. And as long as China did not specifically renounce its sovereignty it will remain the sovereign owner of these islands.
It is easy to understand why foreign countries want to give these islands to Vietnam. It is because China was the target of the West at the end of the WW2 where the West had targeted the USSR and China as their main enemies. So naturally the western nations will do whatever they can to take China's sovereign territories and give them to some other countries. Therefore, these attempts were all invalid being nothing more than acts of hostile nations.
And as I have repeated many times, the cost of going to war against the Philippines and Vietnam will be minimal for China. The reason why it had cost so much for the US in fighting Vietnam was because it was a land war where the American soldiers had to fight close up battles against Vietcongs in the jungle where they can dig tunels to hide in. But in fighting in the S. China Sea, China will be fighting Vietnam on the open waters where the Vietnamese have no place to hide and must fight a high tech war with advanced jet fighters and submarine warfare. This is where China's superior technologies will allow it to wipe out the Vietnamese airforce and navy with minimal loss to China's own military. In fighting the Americans, Vietnam also had indispensable help from USSR and China. Now Vietnam has to pay for every bullet it buys from Russia and China will blockade its ports and land routes from Cambodia and Laos so Vietnam won't even be able to get supplies from the US. Anyway, once war started no ships would want to go to Vietnam for fear of being sunk. And the insurance for ship and cargo will simply be too expensive. So Vietnam cannot sustain a war against China while China can continue to surge ahead in economic development without any serious consequences. It might cost China to replace 10 fighters for Vietnam's 50 fighters. 10 Chinese fighters might cost 1 billion yuan. China's military budget is 600 billion yuan or 1.5% of its 40 trillion plus yuan GDP. So 1/600 of its military budget is nothing for China. Even at 1/60 of its military budget is easy for China to bear. But even $2 billion for Vietnam would be a great burden with its tiny GDP of only $100 billion. So China won't be suffering any economic losses while Vietnam will be bled white.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-29 14:29 #30
China already has established its incontestable historical evidence for its sovereignty. It does not need to take it to any international court for adjudication. I can also sense a change in international sentiment. Before there was an automatic condemnation of China. But now many are giving credence to Chinese claims. At least there is no longer that automatic assumption that China is the bully but a grudging admittance that there is at least a possibility that China does have prior sovereignty claim.
In the end, the world is still very much prejudiced against China. And the law is never about justice but about correct decision based on the existing law or precedence. Therefore, there is no need for China to commit suicide by submitting to the mercy of obvious hostile enemies. Anyway, China cannot be compelled to go to the ICJ. And all the stupid bluster by the Philippines about going to the UNCLOs is just shear stupidity because UNCLOS does not adjudicate issues of sovereignty. It simply does not have that power. It only mediates questions about the interpretation of UNCLOS provisions. UNCLOS cannot give sovereign Chinese territories to any countries.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 00:55 #31
I disagree with you completely .
First of all , I must say I am Vietnamese but I have lived in Australia for nearly 30 years so I am interested in the matter more on an academic basis not such much as national pride or wanting to defend rights of land or anything . Therefore my point of view is not at all biased .
Also having lived overseas , I khow very well how the Westerners think and operate . They do not think at all like you do . Therefore what you are saying is totally wrong .
You said China has established sovereignty but that is only valid IN China and TO China . Nothing is considered absolutely valid until the international community agrees with it . Its like China saying Mr Liu Xiao Bo is a criminal , but to the international community he is a freedom fighter , a Nobel prize laureate and that China is detaining him wrongly ! Its also like China claiming that the 14th Dalai Llama of Tibet is not the real Dalai Llama , but the Rinpoche that China installed into the position is the right one , the world over and all the leaders of other countries still treated the 14th Dalai Llama as the authentic one . China can protest all it wants but this does not change the view of the world . Hence such, if China mistreats either Mr Liu Xiao Bo or the Dalai Llama , the international community will not sit there and watch but will speak up and will have real actions to stop China .
Now the same is with the issue of absolute sovereignty over the 2 islands . The international community at large believes that they belong to Vietnam , based on certain previous historical events that they themselves were present and bore witness . China now has the job of convincing other countries otherwise . Whether or not the evidences to claim sovereignty that China possesses are adequate to convince the world over beyond doubt remain to be seen .
The fact that China did not want to globalize the issue , did not want to bring this matter to the international community bring severe doubt to the mind . Why having to resort to war if China has undisputable proofs of ownership . This simply defies logic . Anyone with half a brain can see that China has serious issues , at least some major holes in its argument .
You said the cost of war to the China will be small ? That is absolute nonsense . Fighting Vietnam alone is not yet an easy task , let alone US and other countries in the area .
If fighting Vietnam is easy and not costly then China would not have been defeated so many times in the last 4000 years by Vietnamese people . They may not have advanced weaponry but they are fanatic fighters . By nature , Vietnamese people are wayyy more aggressive than Chinese . They are also more cunning and have no bound of philosophical ideation such as the teachings of Confucius . Interestingly their government has been trained by Chinese for the last 80 or so years , so they know pretty well much of Chinese tactics . On top of that , the Vietnamese government has deep roots in Laos and Cambodia . Waging a land war on Vietnam wil see China defeated because of the geography of the country and the terrain bordering onto Laos and Cambodia .
The only aspect that China has strength over Vietnam in a traditional warfare is sea battle . Everybody knows that and that is exactly why US battleships have entered the South China Sea and is holding practice fights with Vietnam naval . China is not as strong as the US when it comes to sea battles . Even Mr Dee Woo , world famous commentator of China has had to admit that should China wages a sea battle with Vietnam , and encountering US battleships on its course , China would have to resort to nuclear weapon to win . If China uses nuclear weapons to win the battle over sovereignty over Spratly and and Paracel Islands , China would place itself on the enemy list of almost the entire world over .
Not to mention other surrounding countries will not sit still . Its not because they favour Vietnam over China , far from it , its because they are , too , afraid of China . Or rather , afraid of China's intention of extending its territories in the South East Asia . What China does to Tibet , the world has seen and will not forget . Your attitude here on this forum , pretty much present this attitude of the Chinese government , ie we declares something belongs to us , we will take it , by force if necessary . From the Chinese point of view , of course this is great ! So just and patriotic , but the others , well, let's say , at least it does sound pretty greedy and unreasonable . Therefore other countries in the South East Asia will not sit still should China really wages a war against Vietnam . Because they are too afraid that , in doing nothing , they open themselves to be the next target .
Why do you think they all agree to invite US in ? And do you really think the US will sit and watch if China attacks Vietnam by force ? This is not just about Vietnam , this is about Chinese threat to the whole region . This is not a war between 2 countries , but it will blow up into a war between China and the US as well as the whole South East Asia , and their allies ! No matter how strong China is , this is not something China wants to take on .
Why do you think the Chinese government agrees to enter discussions ? If it really has the upper hand why would it bother to do that ? You said its because Chinese leaders are too softhearted ? Do you realize that by saying so you are downplaying your own government and your own people , claiming that China is being leaded by people less politically savvy than a youngster on an internet forum ?
Rather it is because China does not have enough convincing evidences of sovereignty and does not want to start a war with Vietnam , that China HAS to agree to discussions .
In the future, should the discussions fail completely , then maybe we see some forms of military actions , not now , not in the near future .
The way I see it , the islands will be divided between the countries staking claim , with Vietnam retaining the main part . Then China and the US will sign treaties with Vietnam over oil and gas projects .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 01:19 #32
What do you mean incontestable evidence ? You are contradicting yourself . If the evidence is so incontestable why needing to go to war ??
The world is not prejudiced against China for no reason . Why does the world not prejudice against Australia for example ? What the world thinks of China is based on what China does . China declared Tibet belonged to motherland and invaded Tibet by force , killing its people and mistreated the monks and nuns there quite ruthlessly . China has shown over and over again that it has no respect for the international community so then why should the international community offers China any ? Simple laws of give and take . If China finds itself having hostile enemies that is because China created them ! China has to learn to look at self first before blaming anyone else .
I notice that Commnunist govenments have the tendency to do that , blaming every difficulties on " hostile enemies " instead of taking responsibility . Vietnam does the same .
I agree that no one can force China to go to the UNCLOS , but the mere facts that China does NOT want to go through any form of independent mediation is further proof that China knows it will not win the battle by reasons and evidences only . If China really does have incontestable evidence then it should be to China's advantages to go .
You claim that you " sense a change in international sentiment. Before there was an automatic condemnation of China. But now many are giving credence to Chinese claims . " Well in political discussion , there is no such thing as sentiment . There is no room for sentiment . Its all about facts .
Would you be so kind as to provide me with proofs of your claim , please ? From where I sit , I do not see that at all . What I find , including comments from Chinese observers themselves , are that China is being cornered , put on the dissecting table and is getting upset . That is why speculation of war got started , it is because China may be left with no alternative should it really tries to take the island , ie by force .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 07:18 #33
This is nonsense. You are also being illogical. If the international community is the final and absolute arbiter of right and wrong then there would be no need for the ICJ or World Court. All anybody need to do is call for a vote in the UN or get an opinion poll by the international media or even an opinion poll on the internet. Furthermore, opinion of the international community changes from time to time and is influenced and indeed determined by media hype. And most of all who constitute the "international community?" The international community is not just the cabal consisting of Japan, America and the western countries. These are always prejudiced against China therefore their opinions are worthless. The rest of the world either down care or don't know enough to make a judgement. For example, many think it is the proper thing for China to go to UNCLOS with the Philippines for a ruling on the sovereignty of the Nansha A. But the UNCLOS simply does not have the authority to rule on sovereignty issue. All UNCLOS says by way of dispute settlement is in the following:
As is shows above, the only disputes settled by UNCLOS is about the "interpretation and application" of its own provisions and not about issues of sovereignty which is not provided for anywhere in the UNCLOS convention. Therefore, the determination of sovereignty is not in the purview of UNCLOS. The issue of sovereignty is more properly determined by the ICJ. But even the ICJ cannot compel any country to submit to it. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that "international community" can unilaterally determine important issues like sovereignty of a nation. And as I indicated above there is no such thing as the "international community" in terms of a concrete entity that is competent enough to pass judgement on any important issues concerning the fate of any nation. And not the least when the West talk about "international community" it generally means the West itself with maybe a few camp followers. Therefore, your "international community" is really not worth anything. It is just the prejudice of a biased cabal of western nations which is and will be for a long time be hostile to China and the eastern nations including Vietnam. And if it seems they are helping Vietnam it is only because they want to harm China more than they want to help Vietnam.
Furthermore, China also has an "international community" in the SCO and BRICS and other friends and allies whose opinion favor China over Vietnam. Even in San Framcisco Conference, USSR had proposed that the S. China Sea archipelagos belong to China. Therefore, there was obviously a division in the opinions of the "international community." And the future opinions of the "international community" will surely change when China grows even bigger. For instance, once China has surpassed America in terms of GDP size and military strength as seen by such overt signs as the number of aircraft carriers then the opinion of the "international community" will surely change as many nations will get on the side of the stronger China and shy away from the now weaker America and the West.
You might side with America and the West now. But if you were a real Vietnamese and living in Australia then you must have experienced prejudice because you're oriental and looking like a Chinese. I can tell you prejudice in America against Chinese is bad and even worse against the Vietnamese. And that will not change unless and until China is stronger than the West. Which will also benefit the Vietnamese. And finally, the future of Vietnam will be dim if it relies on America because America simply cannot do anything to benefit Vietnam in economic terms. It has levled off economically and will be lucky not to decline and fall. So if you like to see Vietnam rise to the level of earning $20,000 a year or more then you'd better hitch your wagon to China because America will only turn you into something like the Philippines.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 10:46 #34
The cost of land battle will obviously be higher but it does not mean that China cannot fight a land battle. China did fight a land battle against the Americans in Korea and defeated them. Or fought them to a standstill which is the same thing since it is America's plan to conquer China. Chinese soldiers also dedeafted the Japanese in southern China when the Japanese tried to take Yun Nan not once but three times. Chinese soldiers also defeated the Japanese in Burma to rescue Merill's Marauders who were trapped by them. And of course the Chinese also defeated the Indians without even breakinga sweat. In the past China had fought well to exterminate the Xiongnu in the Han Dynasty. In the Sung Dynasty, Ye Fei was on the point of exterminating the Jin Empire when he was recalled by the Sung Gao Zhong. So it was not the inability of the Chinese soldiers to fight that had ultimately allowed the Mongols to conquer China. In the Ming Dynasty the Chinese had kept the barbarians at bay for hundreds of years but ultimately collapsed due not to foreign conquest but due to internal rebellion and betrayal.
But those are ancient history. The question is can the Chinese fight now? I think they can. Especially in high tech wars. It has been reported in the Pakistan Defense forum that Chinese J-10 routinely locked onto Vietnamese Su-30 with their fire-control radar which means they can shoot them down with the probability of 50% to 90% depending on the distance. Within the no escape zone of Chinese air to air missile such as PL-12 there is virtually no escape. The PL-12 no escape zone is 35 km to 45 km while some say the no escape zone for America's AIM-120 is less than 5 miles. So apparently to that extent Chinese weapons are superior.
You might not have heard of China's recent deployment of DF-21D anti-ship missile and J-20 stealth fighters. Both are either superior to anything America has or just as good. You talk about China encourtering American battleship in the S. China Sea. But with the deployment of DF-21D no American battleships can approach Chinese coast within 2,000 miles. Since the entire S. China Sea is within 2,000 miles of Chinese borders, no American ship of any kind can enter S. China Sea without being sunk. Therefore, there is no longer any need to use nuclear weapons to defeat the US. China has more than enough conventional weapons to defend against the most formidable American weapons. Actually, China doesn't even need to use its DF-21D. China has just as many submarines as America with 60 each. Most of the Chinese subs are very quiet and as good as the best of American subs. So just one or two torpedoes will be enough to sink the biggest American battle ships.
It is obvious that you are ignorant of China's rapid advancement in military technologies. As always there is no lack of capability of the Chinese to fight. China had lost in the past due to the corrupt government. Now China is not fighting again due to the timidity of the Chinese government while the military is very well prepared and able to fight. That reluctance to fight may change when the new leadership team begin in a couple of years. At least I hope so.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 10:55 #35
This is shear nonsense. China has for thousands of years established sovereignty over S. China Sea so of course it will defend it. Same thing with Tibet and Xinjiang and every part of China's territories. China has never claimed anything south of Nansha A. No country anywhere in the world needs to fear China. China has published its map. Do you see China claiming anything outside of what is has publicly claimed for thousands of years? Obviously not.
So far I have heard of nothing but propaganda from you. Start relying on facts and truth or you will lose your credibility.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 11:23 #36
Gahn, don't talk to me about world opinion or anything about San Francisco Conference or Geneva Convention or what the ASEAN countries fear or such nonsense. If you want to convince me that Vietnam has sovereignty over Nansha and other archipelagos, then show me the proof that Vietnam had discovered these islands before the Chinese in the 3rd Century BCE, and that it had established unquestioned sovereignty over them before the 8th Century AD when the Chinese in the Tang Dynasty had incorporated them into the Chinese administrative map and that Vietnam had maintained claim of sovereignty over them ever since like China has done. Or prove to me that China had at any time without being forced voluntarily renounced sovereignty over these islands. If you cannot, and obviously you cannot, then you really have no proof of Vietnam's claim of sovereignty. And everything you keep harping on about world opinion only shows you have no proof at all which is why you resort to making a big fuss about nonsensical diversions to distract China from the fact that you have no proof.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 11:41 #37
I am not siding with anyone , as I said I am interested in this matter only on an academic level . I would like to see for myself if the arguments given out by any claiming government appears to be more convincing than the others . So far I can see the logic on each side of the arguments but nothing seems to really stand out . As of present , it leans towards Viet Nam .
China , as you said , is staking its claim on the maps drawn by the Tang's dynasty , but what about all the other maps following those . Did Chinese continually over the years hold an interest in the islands ? It appeared not .
You discount the importance of what the international community supports and offer the arguments that it is due to the changing nature of such community . Well , the same argument can be used against China's claim of sovereignty , because China's interest on the islands also changed with time . The Chinese governments through the years did not always pay much attention to them , even when they were mentioned in important discussions such as at the Geneva or the San Francisco conferences . Now all of a sudden , China becomes so set on owning the islands that it is prepared to go to war and sacrifice the lives of its people over them . Why ? It is because China wants the oil and gas deposited in the region . It can be seen clearly as an act of greediness , not of defending sovereignty .
You may also discount the importance of the UNCLOS , and while it is true that it does not hold absolute power on sovereignty and can not make a finite decision for any country , but none the less , it is an independent body of negotiation that most countries respect . By refusing to go there to discuss the matter with the Philippine , China is displaying to the world an arrogant and uncooperative attitude , which may be why China has so many " hostile enemies " . All of this will be taken into account at any Conference , Meeting , Discussion and especially at any World Court .
Another matter that you may have not considered is the fact that although China has visited these islands from an early age , but they never really inhabited nor defended them . No one really lived there , no blood had been lost to defend the islands . Rather each time the Chinese government send troops over there , it its to claim sovereignty by force .
I must also ask you about the Tang dynasty' s map . If that is to be respected , then what was the northern borders of China like then ? If I recall rightly , Mongolia and other regions far North did not belong to China during those period . Would China then return the land to the Mongolian people ? Tibet was not part of that map either , would China then return the land to the 14th Dalai Llama and his people ?
You can not just use one map for one claim of land and then another map for another claim . That is childish .
Maybe now you can see part of the many reasons why Chinese government did not want to bring these so called absolute evidence to a global Conference . If the Tang's map is to be observed, China may gain Spratly and Paracel but will stand to potentially lose a lot more . Your government can not be less savvy than you are . If they dont want to do something , they must have pretty good reason for not doing it , and I am sure it is not because they are being softhearted .
On a side note , since you mention prejudice . Do you really detest the Western world because you think they hold prejudice against Asian people ? Have you ever lived overseas in a Western country ?
Only fearful people prejudice against others . Educated , confident people dont . I associate mainly with the intellects so truly I have not experienced any prejudice at all . I think if I do come across some who would treat me differently simply because I have yellow skin , slanted eyes and black hair , I will just smile at them and feel pity for them , rather than being upset or hurt .
The world is really coming much closer .
Now this is the weekend here and I am going to spend some time going out with my family . I will write more later .
Hope you have a good weekend too and I am still waiting for your proofs that other countries have now regarded China's claim as more valid , than says , several months ago .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-30 11:53 #38
Just as I posted the last post I read this paragraph of yours so I am writing a bit more in reply .
I am not defending anything nor I am trying to prove anything to you . Because really our opinions are valid only to ourselves . Its not like we can make a real decision or that what we think really matters on a national level .
This is more a discussion between interested people on various aspects of the matter . Its not a matter of national pride or life and death or anything like that should either win or lose the argument . Cool off Liang3a ! What aspect can be considered valid and what is to be discarded as " nonsense " is up for discussion . Neither of us hold the power to determine this . Have an open mind and prove that Chinese are peace loving and reasonable people .
Your choice of words is showing that you are getting upset ! If you are on the winning side why getting upset ? People only get upset when they run out of valid arguments .
When I come back from being out , I am going to do a search on the map drawn by the Tangs dynasty and see what areas of land is considered to belong to China , and see if subsequent maps showed any changes . Have you seen those ?
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-31 06:03 #39
Ganh, I have lived most of my life outside of China. I know what prejudice is from first hand experience. All your questions are either asked and answered or not worth answering. I can respect logic and facts and I can easily see BS.
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-31 06:15 #40
Hi Liang3a , I have found some Chinese documents stating that the far South border of China in the South China Sea was only to latitude 18th and did not include Paracel and Spratly .
It seems Chinese documents and some maps through the years were inconsistent and several of them clearly did not include those 2 islands as part of China .
I will see how I can upload them here for you to see .
现在是中国一举解决南海问题的绝世良机 2011-07-31 10:14 #41
Ganh, you had asked about why China is reluctant to go to the ICJ. Below is what I posted to another thread. This is why I think China should not go to the ICJ.